oh someone please sort him out!

[narmada]

DS2 is 14 weeks - naps a major problem and he is chronically overtired.

he will only go to sleep in my arms, dummy firmly in, and when he starts to wriggle and squirm himself awake (frequent) i have to get up and jiggle him around in a dark, quiet place. if put down when deeply asleep he will only do 30 minutes before waking - still tired and cranky, and repeat all day. he will have 30 mins in a moving pram after a fair bit of pushing. swings, slings and car do not work to either send him to sleep or keep him asleep.

failure to ensure he naps results in hours and hours of overtired squirming, scratching batting head from side to side in my arms from anout 7 pm till he finally gives in and sleeps around 11 pm.

i have severe pnd and another child of 2.5 so finding this intensely difficult. can anyone advise please??!

have in the past used pantley's book but she doesn't have too much to say about those under 4 months ....

Anyone? I'm going even more demented than I already am. Help!

Have you tried cranial osteopathy? Think we've met before about squirming nappers :) My LO is the same and only naps in my arms, wakes up after 30 mins in Moses basket etc. I feel your pain! But cranial osteopathy has really helped - after her third session she napped for 2 hours - not on me! I've found temperature plays a part as well - DD wakes if she's too hot or cold. Also she sleeps much better swaddled. I've ordered a Woombie to see if that will help.

Sorry it's prob not much help but didn't want you to go unanswered. Are you taking anything for your pnd? Keep eating - I'm always much worse if I haven't eaten.

Really hope things get better for you :) x

Hi dreemagurl, sure we've met elsewhere and thanks for replying. Yes, on a ton of meds for PND and they are doing some good.

I think we will have to give the C.O. a go. Running out of other ideas.

Will look up the woombies, but think we've had something similar and failed with those!

x

Yeah we tried a snuggle pod which was totally useless - DD hated it! Hoping the Woombie will give more support. Also we've just moved her into her cot as the Moses is getting too small and she slept much better. Will try napping her in there maybe... It's got to the point where I'm terrified to put her down in case she wakes up! Writing this now as she sleeps in my arms :)

Give the CO a go - it nay help, it may not, but for me I felt like I was doing something positive. Also I think the mantra 'This too shall pass' is helpful - they're not going to be napping on us forever!

I appreciate it must be difficult for you with another wee one :(

Sending you good luck vibes and hugs x

Have you tried the grobag swaddles? They're made out of stretchy material so you can swaddle them tight, my DS used to like some pretty harsh looking swaddling! Then to stop him from rolling round his cot, we'd tuck a thin sheet in on top of him. His cot was like an Alcatraz for babies, and it worked. I think he likes to feel all his limbs around him iyswim?

That sounds really tough, is there anyone who can help you out in the day?

The one thing Pantley does say about naps IIRC is that when they're chronically overtired to try whatever works to get as much sleep into them as possible, I know with DD the less sleep she has, the shorter her naps, in a horrible vicious circle.

It must be a nightmare with another LO but if he does sleep in the pram - albeit only for 30 minutes - could anyone help you out by spending more or less a whole day or two pushing him round your neighbourhood with pit stops for feeding etc? Maybe once he's topped up his sleep tanks a bit he might be able to go a bit longer. Or does he scream in the pram when not asleep?

What's his sleep like at night once he does go down? How long does he go between naps, or between napping attempts?

Sorry can't be of help but sending sympathy!

dreemagurl glad you are getting somewhere with the cot - that sounds great.

jazziejeff not tried the grobag ones but we do have something similar I think with all kinds of flaps for arms - basically escape-proof. He doesn't/ can't escape but neither do they make him sleep any better in the day.

beancounting thanks for your reply - I am certain that sleep breeds sleep like you - but I just can't seem to get enough into him to top up the tanks! he is sort of permanently frazzled, arms flailing like a madman. Have tried all kinds of wake/ nap intervals, short, long, going by his cues, nothing really seems to make much of a difference. My mum comes to stay every other week and my DD of 2.5 is in nursery some days: without that I really would be going completely insane.

For the last week he has slept for 7 hours straight once he does go down, but won't go down until 11 pm or thereabouts. Sometimes he wakes once and then it takes another hour to feed and get him sufficiently deeply asleep to be put back in his bed. We have tried much earlier bedtimes - no chance.

This too shall pass, I suppose - but the question is, will he finish me off first?!

PS I know I should be grateful for those 7 hours at night - I am,hugely, my DD never achieved that at his age, just conscious it is probably all going to go to crap with the 4 month sleep regression and when he realises he needs repeat night-time performances of the procedures used to get him to sleep in the first place!

Have you tried toggling together a basic routine? I.e for every nap, put him down in the same place at the same time and in the same top cover (sleeping bag/swaddle/blanket) even if this is in his pram or whatever. Then keep him awake until the next nap time. I think by repetition, he'll get it.

It's not about being grateful for 7 hours sleep a night; you don't want to see your baby upset. It's somehow worse if you know what's wrong, in your case you know he's overtired. It's so hard. Keep talking on here.

My DS was awful for the first 10 weeks with sleeping. He wouldnt sleep unless being cuddled by somebody & if I put him down he SCREAMED until picked up again. It was gone midnight everyday before he'd settle for bed & he just woke up an hour later.

I remember waking up to his screaming, ignoring him, calmly walking out my room & going down to my kitchen, closed the door, put a towel over my mouth & screamed. I screamed & howled & sobbed for half an hour, I was physically shaking & actually pulling my hair out. I hadn't slept for longer than 3 hours in 10 weeks.

One day I just snapped. It was about 11am & he'd had a feed & settled down for a nap in my arms. And I just thought, "no more." I put him down in his vibrating chair & settled on the couch for a nap myself. After 10 mins he realised where he was, woke up & began howling. I walked out the room. He screamed & shrieked for over an hour & it ripped my heart out. I was on the other side of the door, sat on the floor sobbing for him.

He screamed until he was hoarse but after an hour & a half, everything went quiet. I waited 5 minutes & peeked around the door, he'd screamed himself to sleep. I lay on the couch to sleep myself & woke up 2 hours later when he woke up hungry.

The next time he fell asleep in my arms, I did the same thing. He screamed again, I left him again, but eventually he fell asleep. I kept doing this over & over. Now he's 17 weeks & sleeps on his own no problem, in fact now, he PREFERS to nap on the couch with a pile of cushions & a blanket rather than with me! Lol!

Next I started to keep him awake longer in the day which was easy as now he's more active & alert, he enjoys toys & play more.

Now he feeds every 3 hours like clockwork & goes to bed at 10pm, sleeps through the whole night & wakes at 10am the next morning. 12 uninterupted hours of glorious sleep.

It was hard leaving him & hearing him scream & it was a hard slog to get where we are now, I nearly cracked so many times & wanted to rush in to comfort him but my mum said to me, "you HAVE to do this if you want to get him routined into a sleep pattern & he won't remember this."
I'm so glad I stayed strong enough to do it.

Good luck. x x x

jazziejeff that approach sounds like it's worth a try, thanks for the idea.

littlebeth there have been times when I have been sorely tempted by that approach and glad it worked for you but.... just can't do it. I definitely don'y judge you for it - that is the approach I will take when he is older if the sleep probs persist, and if gentler methods don't work. They never really did with my DD.

He may well be frustrated that he can't get himself back to sleep; my DS woke up early from his nap today and obviously just couldn't get himself back off; he's usually pretty good so no idea why. But it was real angry cries you know? It might be worth reading up on sleep training to prepare yourself mentally should you ever have to do it.

I would be worried if my tiny baby slept for long periods of time after having his soft skull prodded.

Not sure 2 hours the following day counts as a long period of time but thanks for putting the fear of God into me for trying to help my child sleep better

LittleBeth53 I agree with you. I did the exact same thing with my DC. I got a lot of people frowning at me, saying it was brutal to do it and how awful I was to let my baby cry, but the silly women who said that to me are the ones still bleating that they get no sleep whilst me & my DC have 10 hours undisturbed sleep a night with 3 one hour naps throughout the day. You did the right thing.

Admittedly its not for everyone but I read all the 'expert' books and went to baby clinic meetings and asked for advice after advice, I never tried the poke them in the head technique(!) but in the end, it was my health visitor who said its the only thing to guarantee success, not to indulge screaming and tantrums unless you want them to behave that way forever. When my DC went through the stage of screaming for nothing, she was put straight down and ignored. Now she's angel sleeper, feeder and we laugh and play all day, tantrum free.

Good luck narmada. I'm sure you'll figure it out in your own way and it will pass. All the best. x

I must say I agree with LittleBeth and OneProudMummy

I'm a mother but I was also a peadiatric nurse for a number of years.

On a personal level I would say that every woman has a worthy opinion and those first few years raising a child are the hardest yet most rewarding ones.

I found that the only truly effective lasting way to get my child many years ago into healthy eating, sleeping and behaviour patterns is the methods of letting them cry, which teaches them that screaming doesnt equal them getting their own way. Its hard to try to condition tiny babies, but early treatments have long lasting effects. As a result of the method I chose, my son learnt to sleep independantly, feed regularly and enjoy playing, learning and sharing, as OneProudMummy said, tantrum free.

Again on a personal level, it seems some women would prefer to manipulate their babies soft skull until they pass out rather than tolerate the inconvinience of hearing the baby cry for a while.

Some medical professionals recommend CO, but it wasnt a first or even second choice during my time and it wouldnt ever be something I would personally try or recommend.

The best of luck. x

CO is very gentle. It doesn't make babies 'pass out'! It's very relaxing for them. My DS also slept better for a while after having it, but not sure the effects were lasting. But sometimes these things are worth trying just so you feel you're doing something.

Also worth considering whether your baby releases or increases tension by crying. DS quickly descends into total and utter hysteria if left to cry. I suspect that he could keep screaming all night and never go to sleep. Cry-it-out doesn't work for all babies from what I've heard - regardless of whether you think it's right or wrong.

I have similar issues to you, narmada, so lots of sympathy from me. What's working for us at the moment is to swaddle him, put some white noise on and walk up and down patting him quite firmly on the back saying 'shhh, shhh'. Am sure you've tried everything thougj, if you're anything like me!

Hope things improve for you soon.

Have any of you actually had or seen cranial osteopathy? It's not manipulating a tiny baby's skull until they pass out. It's realigning parts of the skull that were previously misaligned and causing discomfort / pain. My child has never 'passed out' after a session, and has in fact been smiling and giggling through most of them. As well as helping her sleep better it's also helped ease her extreme digestive discomfort as she was previously unable to bring up wind. I don't find her crying an inconvenience but obviously want to do anything I can to ease pain and distress. Not quite sure why the judgmental comments are being made!
Sorry for slight hijack narmada, wishing you all the best with your LO

Sorry CountBapula, posted at same time as you! :)

Of course everybody is entitled to believe in a method that works for them. Some women find success in the cry it out method, others find it in CO.

I do apologize if my comments came across as judgemental but yes, I have seen and know of CO, I worked medically with babies and children for 11 years which required a long long time of medical training and learning in the field of childcare. I am also a mother myself and personally, not for me. Just as personally, the cry it out way is not for some others.

I was always told from when I first had my children a long time ago, that babies are not born with a chip in them that immediately means they know what's right and what is wrong. They learn these things, they need to be taught.

Not all babies cries are needless, I realise that they cry out of discomfort, pain, hunger etc but my mother taught me that a baby crying to be held so they go to sleep, is a cry for comfort. Which is fair enough, but highly impractical as one cannot hold a baby for hours and hours. Before I began trying the cry it out way all those years back, I found it was 4pm in the afternoon before my DS would let me put him down and be quiet enough to let me brush my teeth!

I've seen in my profession little babies growing out of it but I've also seen babies learning that crying equals attention and thus tantrums begin and in my personal and professional opinion, cuddling and attention when tantrums are occuring, is rewarding bad behaviour. But clearly that's best saved for another thread.

I simply offered an opinion on this thread but I shall leave you all to it as clearly a conflicting one is not welcome.

I do apologize if I have caused any offense or upset anybody. Good luck OP, I do sincerely hope you find the way that suits you best. x

I stumbled across the title of this thread and I must say, how interesting. It seems to be a split discussion on two different methods.

I agree, theres been quite some judgement on the cranial osteopathy, but also how patronising to comment at a peadiatric nurse of 11 years, 'have any of you actually seen CO.' We're all mothers, I'm sure that as we're in the 'sleep' threads we've all the heard the available methods.

All anybody can do in these threads is throw their two cents in and hope the OPs take it as its meant, an offering of help or advice. Personally, I'm tending to agree with the "cry-it-outers." Purely because I did try CO and my daughter became dependant on it. Eventually it lost it's effect and she'd scream at me waiting for another way for me to comfort her to sleep.

I ended up having to spend hours running my finger up and down the bridge of her nose as it was the only way she'd go to sleep. If I stopped she screamed. So I too in the end just stopped, left her to it and she eventually learnt how to sleep on her own. It was hard, distressing work for a couple of months but in the end, like the other "cry-it-outers" DC's, my DD began sleeping through the whole night with a couple of naps during the day. We've just got past 'the terrible two's' and I was scared she'd resort back to her old finicky ways with sleep as you hear such horror stories about toddlers, but nope, slept straight through every night, she even switched from her cot to her big girl bed without so much as a batted eyelid.

Its worth giving it all a go and settling on what best suits you. But what best suited me was after the hard couple of months, going to bed at 11pm, waking up at 8am and spending the day playing with my well rested little girl. Wonderful.

Best of luck OP. Much love. xxx

thanks everyone for your posts. lots of different opinions - always a good thing in my book.

for what it's wotrth i have been reading snatches of 'cry it out' weissbluth and altho there is some terrible crap in there (especially about the mechanics of breastfeeding) i found myself more convinved by his arguments than i expected [blush. even he does not advocate CIO for babies under 4 months tho, altho there is some bluff about 'exceptional circumstances'....

re CO, i don't think it could possibly be harmful unless they poked the un-closed fontanelles very hard, surely?!...

count, seen you on other threads, feeling your pain with all that pacing! this too shall pass...

we are currently waiting on a few medical test results for our fella, so when they are through i will feel more confident that there is no underlying physiological cause for his strange sleep behaviours.

antway, thabks everyone for posting and excuse this wonky one-handed typing. you can guess why.....!

narmada what sort of tests if you don't mind my asking? Just wondering if it's worth us doing the same? PM me if you prefer (or tell me not to be so nosey by all means).

Okay, CO.....

My DD has had several treatments, and I have had too. There is not poking of the soft skull. I was treated by an osteopath with a BSc and a Masters in treatment of children. Highly highly qualified. The treatment is extremely general, I can vouch for that. And believe you me my DD would let us know whether she found it painful.

So, would I rather my DD became a more content baby through very gentle and non obstrustive osteopathic treatment or through me leaving her to cry her little heart out at 3 weeks old? It is a no brainer for me. Now my DD (5 months) cries so rarely that crying it is out is not even an issue.

cote well that was a helpful comment are you going to enlighten us all as to what you gained from coming on here and making such a negative comment? In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is actually a space for the OP to talk out her problems with her LO's sleep without judgement. If you want to criticise people's choices, that's probably one for the AIBU boards. Thanks.