Day sleep probs..."Gina baby"

[Bloom]

Hi, I'm new to this site. I have a 7 week old baby and we have been following the routines from TCLBB since he was one week old. He is a very good baby, and we mostly have had great success with the routines.

However, we are having some problems at the moment with his day time sleeps.

1. he sleeps fine during the lunch time long sleep if he is at home in his own bed (its a baby hammock suspended on a spring, so moves a little when he sleeps). But when we are out, or at work (I own day nurseries and he has been coming to work with me), he will wake after 45 minutes and not go back to sleep. He is obviously still tired, but wont give in.

2. After his morning sleep, I have to wake him up and he is soooooo grumpy. I then spend the next hour until his feed trying to entertain him, but usually he just cries on and off. But if we are out, or at nursery, he doesnt do this. He is happy to look around at all the new things until it is time for his next feed.

3. same problem as morning, but he does it after pm sleep.

With regards to the second and third problem, I have tried letting him have a longer sleep, thinking that he may still be tired, but this did not work. Also, the fact that he is fine when out indicates to me that he is not really tired. I am also sure that he is not hungry during these times. And also, after the 2:30 feed he is quite happy to entertain self in bouncy chair for up to 45 minutes.

Anyone following these routines have any suggestions?

pupuce - Gabriel is 10 weeks now. Interesting about your child only going 1.5hrs before a nap - it's just that until last week he always went exactly 2 hrs. Also - the dummy is only used (and wanted) for about 5 mins as he's getting really drowsy and starting to sort of wail as he's dropping off. It calms him down, then either he spits it out or I take it out. He porbably only uses it twice a day, so I feel ok about it. His room isn't very dark - his daytime naps have to be in our bedroom, still in his moses basket (which he is rapidly growing out of) with a piece of blackout hung over the blind. This is because there is a building site behind our building and his room backs onto it - thus the noise wakes him up! the blackout doesn't fit perfectly, but I'm in the process of fitting it onto some hooks so it's better. He is still feeding 5 + 1 night one, but I guess I just wanted to drop the night one asap. He's 13lb 3oz and can happily take 6oz formula at 11pm, so I thought that he could last - as he's often gone to 5 / 6am, before reverting to 4am. If your child only lasts 1.5hrs before a nap doesn't that throw the routine out quite a lot by the end of the day? also - if you then stick to the feeding times, how did you keep them occupied & happy before the feeds?

Has anybody read the book by Dr Weissbluth (referenced in GF)? I found it interesting comparing it to GF. One thing he does say is that babies don't really develop proper daytime napping patterns until they're 4mths, and they develop nighttime sleeping patterns first. So for those of us who have struggled with daytime naps, this suggests one reason why. His book is also less supportive of GF's hypothesis that too much daytime sleep leads to less night-time sleep - instead he simply argues that at least two long (an hour or more) day-time naps are necessary for good night sleeping patterns, and that you want to ensure lots of exposure to light to avoid day-night confusion. This suggests that maybe longer naps are not so bad for night-time sleeping not that I've managed to get DS to take them consistently) as long as you avoid the night-owl syndrome - do people think this is true or not in their experience?

Manna, I also find a 6am awakening tends to throw any idea of a schedule out the window as ds won't go back to sleep and accept a top-up feed later on, but insists on starting his day right then. We seem to eventually work our way back to a 7pm bedtime because he doesn't take a late pm nap consistently, but it is a bit hit and miss - if I get it wrong, then settling DS can be quite hard. If you have a solution, then I'd be glad to read it!

Florenceuk, you don't say how old your baby is (please specify if you want my advice ;-)... maybe you don't !).
The 6AM waking at their age (10 wo) is going to pass... it is a problem when they are at least 1 yo because by then they are far more active.

Gina Ford recommends 2 naps a day for babies... she believes a short one in the AM and long one at lunchtime are fundamental to a good night. She does however recommend that babies do not have longer than 2 to 2 1/2 hours at lunchtime because some babies who do can't go down well later... but she is an advocate of naps ! SHe even says that if a baby doesn't sleep well during the day it won't sleep well at night - which seems to be manna's current problem.

Manna : what about putting him under a gym mat ? Reading him a book, giving him a rattle or a cuddly toy ? Does he not like to be left to play by himself for a little while ?

Just a quick question? My dd is nearly one and is becoming increasingly reluctant drinking her milk before bed. I have checked CLBB and GF suggests that babies should be giving up their bed-time milk by the age of one, but in the other book talks about a toddler of 18 months having a cup of milk at bedtime! Am I the only one who is confused by her seemingly conflicting advice? Should I be encouraging dd to give up her bedtime milk (she drinks everything from a cup btw)? Any advice greatly appreciated!

I would follow your child on this one. I think GF recommends dropping the BOTTLE of milk by one more than the milk itself but I have not got the book next to me so can't swear buy it.
DS stopped his bottle at 2 !
The reason for some of these are :

1. Drinking milk just before bedtime isn't great for the baby's teeth - unless you brush them
2. Cups should be prefered to bottles in general from a developmental point of view but if your child happily takes a cup during (which she is) the rest of the day, this is less of an issue.
3. Milk at night tends to be cow or formula which contain protein and increases the likelyhood of bowel movement during the night... so full nappy early in the morning which wake some babies. These are (to my knowledge) the primary reasons to recommend dropping those feeds. If your daughter doesn't want it and you feel she is getting enough calcium or drink during the day... then follow her !

Pupuce

Sam is 10wks old, and I'm not sure what you mean by saying that a 6am (or sometimes 5.30am!) wakening is not a problem - do you mean they will just wake later as they get older? At the moment he won't be satisfied with a cuddle or even coming into our bed - he wants the light on and a play or he just cries. So we end up starting our day quite early - and I worry that it will become a bit entrenched. I guess Summer Time is around the corner which may make it more bearable...Have to admit I have struggled with any kind of a schedule as his eating and sleeping patterns have been all over the place. Today he woke at 3.30am and then 5.30am, ate a bit then wanted to play, had a bit more to eat at 7.15am and then slept from 7.30am to 9.15am - I figured both of us needed it! The main thing I try to do is feed him not more than 3hrly, and fit in at least two naps - he gets really ratty after two hrs, and as he feeds poorly the closer we get to the end of his waking time, it can become a bit of a juggling act! I've tried to follow the routines up to now but as we are a long way from dropping the 3-4am feed (he feeds ravenously then and I haven't the energy to try the water) I have to admit I've given up for now. However any hints on how to deal with the early mornings much appreciated!

Florenceuk - are you following GF? My daughter is now 1 year old and we followed GF routines from 5 weeks. Around the 10 week mark, she was also waking up earlier (between 5.30 and 6.30am.) I don't remember exactly what GF recommended but I followed it. Kept the room dark, didn't make eye contact, did a "night time feed". Also, just gave enough to top her up. Think GF recommends half feed with the rest at 7.30am or something. Anyway, it usually worked for us. DD slept through from 11 - 7 at about 13 weeks I think.
As far as the daytime schedule, we also sometimes found it got a bit out of kilter for parts of the day in the early days if she didn't nap for instance, but I would follow her lead, with an eye on what her schedule would normally be, to spot when she was tired, hungry etc.
HTH! good luck

Quick question Florenceuk... could he not have stayed awake until 830 this morning and gone down until 930 ? To try to put him back on track ?
I can't spend much time now on this as I am at work but I'll look into it tonight.

pupuce- he loves his play mat, toys etc and is generally an extremely active and chatty baby - however, only after a feed (when he can do 45 mins alone no probs). The bit before a feed he's ok, as long as it's not too long. He's not frantically hungry, just doesn't much like amusing himself at this time. He doesn't mind so much if I talk to him, sing loud show tunes etc. - just not too good at being left alone with a rapidly emptying belly! I'm hoping he'll grow out of it.

By the way - he went until 6.15 this morning - hurrah!!!!

Florenceuk - yes, I too can manage to get back on track by 7pm. putting down is never a problem. The best solution I've found is to give him a strict 45 mins am (even if it's early) then take him for a walk in the sling between 10 and 10.30am. This will help him to have another 15 min nap and means that he then corrects himself and tends to go down 12.15 / 12.30 at lunch time, which still gives him a 2hr window to be in time for his 2.30pm feed. It does mean you have to limit him in the pm nap though, but thats ok. I find if you don't try and correct it before the lunchtime nap things can get really out of kilter, so I always seize the first opportunity.

Florenceuk - I think your baby is still struggling with a long night but I am sure you'll soon get there (i can understand that you might be keen to have him sleep through the night though!). 10 weeks is quite young. From reading threads on this site you will notice that there are a large amount of babies who do not sleep through the night before 4 to 6 months old. And I agree with manna said to you.
Good luck - keep us posted.

florenceuk - my baby is also 10 weeks and is going through until 4.30 - 6.30am now. The main thing is, give them as little as possible at 4.30 and then nothing until 7.30, even if they wake early. Then correct the sleep as I suggested below. I've got mine down to 2oz if he wakes at 4.30 (not every night) but now am going to get tough and do the water. If he wakes before 4.30 - nothing - just a cuddle and a quick dummy (or whatever you use to calm them). Also, please don't drop the routine because he isn't dropping the night feed. Either stick with the rest of it or keep him on the 6 - 8 week one with daytime sleep being reduced gradually as he can take it. If you hang in he wll improve - mine certinly is. It's tempting to drop the whole thing but you'll probably find that he wouldn't drop it by now even if you wanted to. Also - what would you do instead?? (it's all so ingrained by now you probably do it without thinking!) Another great piece of advice I was given (which gf does) is: ALWAYS sleep, feed then play. After sleep they are hungry. After food they are contented to be left alone and after play they are tired and need to sleep. It tends to work. The only difference is after the short naps when they have to wait a bit to be fed. Hence crappy attitude. But you'll find that they don't want to play either.

a general question - if your baby wakes before 7am to start his day, can you add on the sleep 'missed' before 7am to his morning nap if he isn't waking naturally after 45 mins (at 10 weeks)? does this count or is it cheating? Also - when he does start the day early he seems to be able to sleep for 1hr + in the pm sleep if I let him - is he over tired?

I guess it depends what you mean before 7 AM. If it is after 630 I would consider it like 7 AM.
Don't add too much in their daytime sleep but at 10 weeks, it seems that up to 1h at 9AM and 2 1/2 hours at 12- would be fine plus max 30 minutes in the afternoon.
Is that how you are doing it now ?

pupuce - I've been giving him 45 mins am and a max of 2hrs lunch time. Maybetha's why he wants up to an hour in the pm. Will try what you suggested today. It's difficult to get him to do even 2hrs at lunchtime as he tends to wake up after 45mins, but I am getting better at re settling him. Just put him down (12 exactly) so we'll see how it goes. Thanks for all your advice - invaluable!

I am glad it's of value to you
I think the 60 minutes in the afternoon is where you need to cut down. And I can see you are trying to increase the lunchtime nap. You are IMO doing a great service to your baby by letting him settle in his bed and allowing him to have long naps. A good sleeper is a great asset in life- even as an adult.

quick question to anyone - my 10 week old has his first cold (ahh.....) should I stick to the routine or let him sleep longer, eat slightly less (he has a slight loss of apetite)etc. without worrying too much? there's nothing I can do about the cold, is there?

Go with the flow.... don't worry he won't forget his routine. A lot of TLC is useful (very seriously) to help your baby get over it.
He'll probably sleep more and feed more (blocked nose)... It will pass especially if you are bf.
Good luck !

after months of ideal sleeping, ds (5.5 mnths) has spent the last 5 days waking after 45 mins, 1hr, 1.5hrs into his nap, and not seeming sleepy - unable to go down again. His morning nap is 45 mins, he eats well and sleeps 7 til 7. He always got a full 2 hrs before now. Any suggestions, or is it just a phase?

Very quickly (I am late for something)... probably just a phase. 1h30 is enough... 45 minutes is probably too short. Just make sure there isn't any noise after 45 minutes... You can also leave him in his cot (unless he cries)... staying in a bed,calmly is also a good way of resting.

Message withdrawn

It is great to have come across the last few entries on this subject! I follow Gina - because I am convinced her routines work. Dd is 2 yrs, Ds is 5.5 mths. Dd has followed G's routines brilliantly, and she still has a 2 hr lunchtime sleep. Ds is on G's schedule until the lunchtime sleep...

He goes down for his lunchtime sleep at 12.30 (occasionally this slips to 12.45) but invariably wakes after 45 mins/1 hr/1.5hrs. He can usually go back to sleep himself if he wakes after 45mins, but then often wakes again after another 15 - 45 mins and will not go back to sleep. I let him cry it out but he gets hysterical and in the end I pick him up as its time for the 2.30 milk feed. There is no regularity to his sleep pattern at this time. I can't help expecting it and wanting it, especially having had Dd do it all so well. I don't understand how my 2 yr old can need more sleep than my 5.5 mth old. He has had phases of sleeping 2 hrs regularly so I know he can do it, but more often than not doesn't make it, then is tired and grumpy later in the afternoon (and as I am out with my toddler most days he doesn't get to catch up later in the day). How can I get the 2 hr lunch sleep established better?? Could I have a baby that just needs less daytime sleep than most babies?? Any suggestions VERY welcome!

Aerial I have to say this is one of the things that worries me about people treating books as a bible. You have to be flexible as each child is different. You might be better to keep your DS awake for longer or put him down earlier. Either he isnt tired when you are initially putting him down or he could be overtired. Failing that he maybe prefer to have sleeps more often but for them to be shorter. Try being a little flexible over this and it will then be easier for you to work out what suits him.

Must be a pain as having had two young ones myself its lovely if they both have a sleep at the same time. Unfortunately it doesnt always work like that. Good luck and take care. x