Day sleep probs..."Gina baby"

[Bloom]

Hi, I'm new to this site. I have a 7 week old baby and we have been following the routines from TCLBB since he was one week old. He is a very good baby, and we mostly have had great success with the routines.

However, we are having some problems at the moment with his day time sleeps.

1. he sleeps fine during the lunch time long sleep if he is at home in his own bed (its a baby hammock suspended on a spring, so moves a little when he sleeps). But when we are out, or at work (I own day nurseries and he has been coming to work with me), he will wake after 45 minutes and not go back to sleep. He is obviously still tired, but wont give in.

2. After his morning sleep, I have to wake him up and he is soooooo grumpy. I then spend the next hour until his feed trying to entertain him, but usually he just cries on and off. But if we are out, or at nursery, he doesnt do this. He is happy to look around at all the new things until it is time for his next feed.

3. same problem as morning, but he does it after pm sleep.

With regards to the second and third problem, I have tried letting him have a longer sleep, thinking that he may still be tired, but this did not work. Also, the fact that he is fine when out indicates to me that he is not really tired. I am also sure that he is not hungry during these times. And also, after the 2:30 feed he is quite happy to entertain self in bouncy chair for up to 45 minutes.

Anyone following these routines have any suggestions?

Pupuce - Enid - Yup its worked - and of course it is all my fault AGAIN!! hey I have broad shoulders - thank you, I got my CLB Book out and ds has 15 mins 9.15 - 9.30, - 12.30 - 2.00 and this morning we had to wake him HOORAH. And on Sunday I am going to leave him - what a little devil I am until 7.30. I would be really interested in what your experiences are about the latest (I know I am running before I can walk) waking - GF says 8.00 - oh what joy that would be - a long lie in again. Although Sundays are normally my lie in day and my husband goes downstairs and does ds - nappy, muesli, toast etc, I am unable to lie there in my bed and totally relax - please tell me I am not the only one to listen out to what's going on

charliesmummy - don't worry it passes (the listening out for signs of trouble thing)!

Dd was a model 'Gina baby' and because I was having to wake her at 7am I dropped her morning nap at about 15 months (I think, not sure of exact age) and she slept thru till 8am. She is now 2 and has an hour and a half at lunchtime, in bed by 7.30pm and wakes at 8.

charliesmummy, you are not the only one who listens out! My dh is utterly competant but when ever he leaves me in bed I just ccan't switch off, I certainly can't go back to sleep. He will say "relax...enjoy... read a book" and I always end up getting up anyway! I am a morningperson (which is lucky as our toddler has been waking between five and six foever... until this week when he has slept until 8 three mornings and 7.15 one morning!!!) Hurrah!!!

I have never been able (except the odd occasion) to have DS sleep after 7AM (usually 645).... and like all of you can't help but hear the first noise and therefore start waking up.... having said that :

1. I agree it gets better
2. When DD was 3 months old (and she does not cry in the morning when she wakes- up I have NO idea when she wakes up, I go and get her at 730), I decided that DS (22 months old at the time) would now go to bed at 1930 so that he would at least NEVER wake before 7AM and that has worked. He tends to wake up at 715. We did get some lie-ins at X-Mas until 8 !!! But he had such busy days and he went outside a lot.... he was very tired and my MIL's walls are very thick so we weren't awaken by the slightest noise.

You can try to get him up later...but you might need to either reduce his morning nap or put him to bed later. I would not touch his lunchtime nap personnally.
Tell us how you get on.

Charliesmummy, ds dropped his morning nap at 10months (his own volition, he just lay there chatting or chuntering until I went back again) and we coincided this with waking him later and later until (10minutes later each day) now he sleeps until 8am. He has a slightly shorter lunchtime nap, 1pm-2.40pm and is ready for bed again by 7-7.15pm, no complaints! He has days when he's not keen on going down at lunchtime, but since he started doing more "group activities" - tumbletots, jojingles, swimming - and became more mobile himself (13months started walking confidently) he's happy as Larry to go down. How old is yours? Can't remember if you said.
I also find it hard to switch off from listening in to dh and ds, on the very odd occassion that I get offered a lie in. Sometimes, never at the moment since moving house. DH keeps getting up at 6am with a stiff back from carting around too many boxes, yet amazingly, manages to be completely cured each w/e!! with the cry of "I really need to catch up on my sleep!!"

Well thank you girls! I thought that I was .. well little bit odd. I have a very capable man, who will do all the ironing, change sheets, and clean the house (I know I am very lucky BUT he is a chronic hyperchondriac) etc, however, I cannot help but listen out to what's going on, even heard dh in the shower one morning and crept downstairs to hug ds!!!?? and then crept back to bed again, still not relaxed. So it is very reassuring to know I am not as mad as cheese.....

Honeybunny ds is 13 months, walking confidently, and we are off to baby gym next month, and starting music lessons next week. I want to start Aqua babies but although very luckily I am nearly at pre pregnancy bodyweight, tragically all skin above knee level has moved 2 inches further down my body, so I will have to go and get a new bikini, something with re-inforced harnesses would be my first choice. So with all this new planned activity ds should be exhausted like all of us!.

Pupuce agree with your thoughts on Lunchtime nap, I would NEVER reduce that. Had some bad experiences on holiday although he was younger, I paid for it!. It is good to know there are some other mums who have children who are a few months or so older.

firstly - you'll have to excuse a new comer. What on earth does ds & dh stand for? I gather it's to do with children / partners but am dying to know what they stand for. A question regarding gabriel, who is now 10 weeks old. He is a great gina baby, and we have even finally cracked the 2 hour sleep at lunch time now. He regularly goes through to 4.30 - 6am before waking for a feed now. However, if he wakes at 6ish I find it very difficult to get him back down - thus throwing out of synch all his sleeps for the day unless I toil around the park for 1/2 hr around 10 ish to give him another little kip which seems to do the trick. How can I get him back for that vital hour? Also - when will he finally sleep through? - I feel that we are so near and yet so far! Is it bacause he is so big and therefore more hungry(though not at all fat, just large!)? He weighed 10lb 3oz at birth and is about 13lb by now. Oh, and another thing - my milk seems to be running out rapidly, despite expressing etc. I'm doing everything I can but it seems to be dwindling on a daily basis. I've had to put him on supplimentary bottles. Please tell me it's not just me!!

Welcome Manna - ds stands for dear son, dh for dear husband (I assume, also not long been posting - but beware, it's addictive!). Congratulations on a a fine healthy baby (by the way - how was the birth !!!!?).

My ds (son) was a very poor sleeper in the day time for the first few months and I am convinced that he was not getting enough milk - so I went on to mixed feeding and that certainly improved things (there is another thread all about this, can't quite remember what it is called). So even though Health Visitors etc might not approve of 'mixed' feeding, I really think it is worthwhile trying, and certainly a lot better than feeling you can't cope with breast feeding any longer - I literally felt I was 'drying up' but I managed to keep going, with the odd bottle, for eight months. I couldn't bear the expressing though, it completely exhausted me (but I am an older mum at 43!).

My baby didn't sleep through the night until 5 months, but some don't for two years and some will at a few weeks so it is just down to luck!

Sorry to hear you are having a few probs with feeding. However please be aware that it is early days yet, it takes at least 6 weeks to get breastfeeding established and at only 10 weeks it is a little premature to start adding bottles. This could lead to problems as the sucking mechanism is different and the babe could get confused.
Try a NCT or La leche league breastfeeding counsellor.
As far as the sleeping goes best of luck -starting school seems to solve our kids problems!

Manna - let's see what we can suggest... lots of mumsnetters know I am quite familiar with the Gina books and have raised 2 kids on it.
Regarding the night sleep : Most Gina babies (but not all) will sleep through the night 2300 - 0700 between the ages of 6 and 9 weeks so at 10 you are not far off. Be aware it may happen tomorrow (with both my kids they were sleeping until 4 or 5 and one day it was 7!). Have you tried settling your baby with 1 breast only or with just water ? Give that a try.
As for milk supplies... Have you expressed milk every morning as GF suggested ? If yes, you can use that milk to supplement. Bear in mind babies go through growth spurt at about 3 - 6 - 9 weeks and that can last 3 days or so... this means that for a few days your baby may be eating more than what you can supply (hence the expressing). However, don't let your baby starve and give him a bottle if need be.
Are you sure you are not anemic (spelling?) - lack of iron ? It is a common cause of poor quantities of milk ? You could try to take a "lactating woman" vitamin supplement. You also need to make sure you rest and drink plenty of water. The odd glass of beer helps with milk production (I can testify to that).

Please post again if you have more information or want to continue getting support. You'll see we all have different opinions but we all try to help based on our experience.... GOOD LUCK

what are these 'gina' books, would I be right in assuming they are American?

Manna, I have had a quick look in my Gina Book and pupuce is right with her advice. My ds as stated just went to 7 O'clock one morning and that was it and it was at 8 weeks, although some people will cry out with horror that if he did wake at 5am after he had made it through- yes I am the BAD mother who did the sugar water thing for two mornings, and then we were back to 7 again.

As for running out of milk - well, where to start .. I always, after 8 weeks gave a bottle of Amptimil First at the 10.30 - 11.pm waking, and my body adjusted well - supply and demand, and breastfed for the 40- 45 minutes as suggested by Miss Ford during all other times 7,10.30,2.15 etc.

However, I totally underestimated just how much food and drink I had to consume just to keep the supply going. During ALL feeds I would drink a litre of water, or a pint of milk and a pint of water with some sort of snack eg wholemeal toast with cottage cheese and prawns and lots of vegetables, and that was all suplementary to 3 good meals a day (I loved all the eating - I was saying up yours Earl Jean and Joseph) I can remember that ds was always covered in crumbs and smelly bits of food from my pigging out, I even ate during the last 6.15pm feed in a dark room that takes some going!.
I cannot stress enough that if you thought you should eat well when pregnant, then even more so when feeding, I thought that I knew better when Gina Ford told us have a good meal and a rest and plenty of fluids prior to the 10.30-11pm feed, however, I then got used to not doing that feed and found that it was easier for my husband (hoorah) to do that one, never to my liking but hey ho. Ask any of us questions and we will try to help, especially when it comes to dropping that last feed 10.30.11pm - SCARY MARY!

Oh I forgot to answer your question - "is it me" -No its every single one of us and it goes on going on, my ds is 13 months and I question something that I do every day. Keep us informed and I have only been on Mumsnet a week and its great - good sound advice and only up to you if you take it!!

Lil - Gina Ford Book - no she is an English Maternity Nurse from I beleive Tyneside, and no pyschobabble (Spelling!) I found it to be good sound advice for a mum like me who started a little later (36) and found it all a huge shock, PND etc. Moreover, I found to my complete surprise that I was NOT a natural mother, in the sense that it depressed me to demand feed to the point that I felt that I had an alien suckling who I though was going to consume me at any point, therefore, her routines have helped me to be saner, but I do appreciate that it is not for everyone.

Lill- I will not pretend to know you but from what I see you write, I have a feeling you would not like Gina Ford's style ! There are other mums out there who do not like her books... It is just one way of doing things which a lot of us have liked and for whom it has worked.
You can have a taste of her stuff on this website. She took part in a questions and answers session a year ago (check from the home page of this site).

Am I that obvious Pupuce?

I think you are right I wll stear clear of Gina. Nevertheless it is very interesting to read of the different ways people use to tackle 'problems'. Afterall there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

thanks for all the advice, everyone. It's great to feel people answer so quickly and actually are interested - I fear I'm boring my dh with all the talk of routines!! Lindy - the birth was horrific,but exhilirating, as expected. 32hrs, no drugs (mad, mad, mad!), a little ventouse at my request after 3 1/2 hrs pushing (!!) and a very chilled out baby at the end of it. I did a lot of pre natal stimulation (see 'super baby'which seemed to help - he came out relaxed, head up absolutely straight and strong, hands unclenched and not a cryer - just like they said he would - hurrah!!

I will try settling him with water tongiht - as he has been less interested in his morning feed and also having to be woken at 7.30 (naughty!!) when I do feed him at 4ish. Even though he only had 3 oz yesterday at 4am the same thing happened, so I don't feel he really needs this feed. He does seem hungry at the time though, and sucks it all down really quickly. should I do the water first or try reducing the feed gradually before trying the water, just in case he is hungry?

Any ideas on seetling him at 6am, or should I just hang out for when he finally goes through to 7? He's been such a good gina baby since week 2/3, it would be just this last bit he can't get right, wouldn't it? Especially as it's the most vital to me!! I keep on reminding myself that he does 21 out of the 24hrs of routine perfectly, so I can't complain.

I would do the water first - get DH to do it if you are unsure. He is likely to be tougher and not smell as nice as you 3 oz is very little.
See how that goes, and maybe you'll have resolved your 6AM waking at the same time.
I'll be looking at this thread tomorrow morning to hear how it went!

Manna - just checked in - try the water if you feel its not hunger, probably its a comforter and what is the point of waking up for water!! we hope. The suguar water worked for me but I was very worried about poisoning !! however, after two mornings and reducing the sugar - it worked! hoorah. My ds is still having to woken up now at 6.50am after my problems of last week. Good luck! agree with dh doing the water, my ds behave totally different with me than he does with his father (I havent told my husband this --JOKE OK)

Oh dear spelling - Gordons!

Hi, Please be gentle with a nervous newcomer but I have a couple of questions.

1. What is this about sugar water? Is this the famous GF again.
2. I have been told that GF doesn't have her own children, thai seems to make sense to me. We tried her sleep routine for a couple of nights and ended up feeling cruel. How can it be right to leave a 6 month old crying so much. I have chatted about Ms Ford with other mums at mother & baby group & a few of us have been left feeling battered & bruised. Should I have tried harder? Does anyone else feel it's a bit mean? Does GF have kids?

There are tonnes of other discussion threads on this website about the pros and cons of GF... and to be honest I don't have the energy to get onto another battle on this.
But to answer your questions :
She has no kids but has been a maternity nurse to over 300 babies - up to you to decide whether that qualifies her or not to write a book on baby routines
For most people that I know (that doesn't qualify my next statement as a truth but just a testimony) - her stuff really works, whether you are talking routines or just the advice. GF does not advocate anywhere in her book letting babies cry... she is against control crying and would only use it as a last resort... and CC to her (as it is to other "experts/authors" is not about letting the baby cry for hours on end...)
She also does not advocate sugar in water - only in very specific situations.
It is easy to make her sound like a matron or an old fashion expert... the "truth" is a lot of us have found her intersting and some of us have used her routines like other choose to read other books or go with the flow. It really depends what sort of experience you want to have. None is better or worst.
As for your own experience, I think it's a bit difficult to judge with that 1 line of text. 1 of my friend is currently struggling with it but my 2 SIL had no problem and 5 other people at work who have also done it, think it's fab... so maybe it isn't for you... maybe your baby had its own routine.
There is another author (British again but her name escapes me - she wrote the Baby whisperer), her theory is (I have not read the book just saw her on tele) that the reason some mums are struggling is because they are missing their babies cues.... is she right ? I don't know. I am very lucky I have 2 very contented babies both followed GF's routine. With the first one it was a god sent and with number 2, I probably would not have bothered as much as she is such an easy baby.. but as DH was noticing, we may not have our nose in the book anymore but we know her stuff in such detail that we do it instinctively !
And just to get some mums going, I am familiar with quite a few mumsnetter who are not keen on GF but when they have posted a problem which I believe could be helped with some of Gina's advice, I have given that advice.... but didn't tell them it came from GF (cheeky me!)... what do you know, they were quite happy with the suggestions - I wouldn't go so far as to say it had work - only they could say that but the feedback was very positive !

Melsam,

I should add... if you want the routine to work because you think it would be helpful to your baby and you, then post here your baby's current routine and I am more than happy to suggest ways of improving it. I would not suggest letting your baby cry. My daughter is 5 months old and I would not let her cry.
Hope I have been gentle enough.... I certainly want you to feel welcome to mumsnet but GF is a HOT topic on this site.

Message withdrawn

Pupuce - checking in as requested. Last night was worse, but then again the whole day was bad. Most unusually, he didn't want to be put down for more than 1/2 hr at a time, moaned a lot and was sleepy only 1.5hrs after waking up. Did a lot of walking around. Normally his days are fab- could it be the full moon??(which I noticed at 4am!)A friend with a gina baby had the same problem! Last night: Woke at 3.15am - cried 15 mins. Settled with cuddle and dummy at 3.45. Woke (as expected) 4.30am. By this time couldn't face water in case he woke again after 45 mins so gave him 2oz formula + 5 mins breast (all that's left!) Settled 5.15 and woke naturally at 7.15am. If he wakes once tonight I will definitely try water (promise) but as you can see he had even less formula last night and still slept through. Also - seems to need his sleeps earlier and earlier. Again this morning after 1.5hrs - creates havoc later - I have from 9.30 to 11am to fill with amusement when he hates the time between waking and feeding anyway! Could he be needing more sleep, not getting it at night due to wakings so compensating in the day? Although his total day time sleep is still in line with gf recommendations. Now so tired that I want to give up breast feeding entirely! i can't wait to get him onto solids - will this help the sleeping?

Manna, sorry I am bit confused (there are so many mums on ths thread that I can't remember who is doing what).
Your baby is 9 weeks old ? So you are still far off solids... how is he breastfeeding ? He must still ahve 5 + 1 night feed right ?
It is quite normal that your baby only stays awake 1.5 hours after a nap... mine who is older is the same. You mention a dummy. Is he dummy addicted ? Or are you following the advice to not letting him fall asleep with the dummy ?
Is his room dark enough for the daytime nap ?