Desperate plea for help, this is out of hand and I'm too tired to think clearly

[SleepEludesMe]

DS is 3 and has never been a good sleeper. Slept through for a few nights a year ago round about the time he self-weaned but is now in a routine of bed at half 7ish, up again around midnight and into bed with us, restless and unsettled, we all end up falling out, often wakes for the day around 5 and we spend another couple of hours trying to get him back to sleep until morning comes and we give up.

Can't go on like this. Have tiny house and MIL staying so DS is starting the night on a mattress anyway. Then when she goes nursery starts this week for a couple of hours a day. And DC2 is due in 6 weeks.

Where we've been going wrong: having big middle-of-the-night discussions/shouting matches, being inconsistent, visiting/having guests (he's slept in 6 different beds over the last 3 weeks), hoping he's going to sort this out himself.

What I want to do: some sort of rapid return, thereby removing the attention he's getting at night. I hate crying and am worried about how we're going to manage this though.

What I need: people to tell me how they did it and what the pitfalls are. I can't think right just now and don't want to go into this half-cocked and screw it up.

Please please help :(

As DS got older I actually found that I could talk to him the night before and explain he was a big boy, big boys spent all night in their beds, that mummy and daddy were extremely tired and that if he got out of bed for anything other than feeling ill or a nightmare he'd be in trouble.
But I guess you've tried that :)
Could one of you go and spend the night in his bed with him when he wakes, gives the other a good nights sleep and you can alternate, plus when hes asleep you might be able to move.
I hate to say it though, all our good work went to pot when DD was born, took a little while to get back to normal, sorry.

Oh yes and bribery. Don't forget the chocolate buttons for when he sleeps all night in his bed.

I got desperate too - called in a lovely night nanny, in three nights she gently and lovingly got our girl to stay in her bed and sleep through the night. Throw money at the problem, sleep is worth it!

Thanks :)

We usually have an arrangement whereby one of us goes to his bed to get some sleep, depending on who's working and who's got the earliest start etc. But obviously while grandma's in it that's off the cards! So we have a futon mattress on the floor where DP has been landing most nights.

He doesn't sleep through often enough for rewards to work. He hasn't slept through for a couple of months. We've had countless "discussions"!

If I had a penny to my name I'd throw it at the problem, but I don't! Tanya Byron's book from the library has been the limit of my expenditure and I've just remembered it's late and I'll be getting a fine!

:(
Sorry for pointless advice, I do know what it's like when you've just tried everything.
What happens if you just send him straight back to bed when he gets up?
I think you're right and rapid return is the answer...

Oh sorry Stealth, didn't mean to be dismissive :). I am grateful for anything, I honestly am so fucking tired and pregnant and pissed off I don't know if the world is square or round anymore.

The idea of doing this and having a newborn ... [shudder]

no I wasn't being humphy, honest :)
What we did when DD was born was I looked after DD and DH dealt with DS - brought him into his bed every night. We did get past it!

Glad to know it's humanly possible!

First of all, huge sympathies - all my 3 DCs were terrible sleepers, particularly my DTs and I can remember only too well the bone-shattering weariness that comes from never getting a full night's sleep.

I think the most important thing is to agree a strategy with your DH and agree that you will stick to it, no matter how hard it gets in the middle of the night. There's no point in saying when you put DS to bed that you will be sending him back to his bed if he gets up in the night, but then giving in after a couple of attempts because you're both too tired and fed up to persevere (I'm sure you know this, but I'm only too aware from bitter experience how difficult it is to be strong when you're so tired you can barely see).

I think you're right - rapid return is the answer, but you will almost certainly have to be prepared for midnight histrionics (from you and DS!) and a few tough nights before you crack the problem. How about a sliding scale of bribery rewards? Perhaps a sticker chart with a spectacular goal at the end - an outing with you and DH to a place he loves or a particular toy he's been hankering after? And stickers handed out in the first couple of nights for staying in bed on his own (eventually) till a certain time, then extend this each night. Can you and DH take it in turns (once MIL has gone), so that one of you sleeps while the other deals with DS - if you've had one decent night's sleep then you'll find it easier to be strong when it's your turn the next night. Having said that, one of our DTs was so loud when we were sleep training that we gave our neighbour a bottle of wine to apologise! Mind you, DT1 managed to sleep through everything, in the next bed .

You might be lucky and find that once he's going through the night in his own bed, that he then sleeps through till a reasonable time (I've always felt that so long as the number on the clock started with a 6, then I could deal with that ). You might find though, that you need to tackle this problem separately once you've got him going through the night in his own bed, and it might be easier to sort that one out in the autumn when the mornings are darker.

Good luck, and be strong .

Oh that's great, thank so much :)

Agree very much about 6 being acceptable!

I at least start ML this week so don't have work to deal with. :)

We did rapid return (dd is 2. 3) and she got it really quickly. It only took a couple of nights and she went from waking up several times a night to sleeping through.

There was a bit of crying but it was anger/frustration because she knew we were right outside the room and it was just that we kept putting her back into bed.

You could work up to it and first have a couple of nights where you stay in the room with him until he goes asleep, just that the object is for him to have a whole night in his own bed.

You also need to give them a clear signal that it is getting up time - saying 'Good Morning' loudly and opening the curtains etc.

If dd gets up in the night (which is now thankfully rare) she ususally comes out of her room and says 'good morning!' but I then say 'no it's still night' and put her back in bed. She understands this and might have a little whinge about it but she quickly goes back to sleep.

Huge synpathy {sad]

Does he settle ok by himself? If not, maybe start there. We found DS's overall sleep improved once he was better at going to sleep by himself. Have details of what we did if you're interested. If he settles ok, rapid return shouldn't be too painful.

Good advice already- the main thing is to make a plan and stick to it, you will see results if you remain consistent. You know what you can tolerate in terms of crying/ being strict and you know what his current limits are. I would suggest just slightly stretching your limits on both sides- expect a little bit more from him each night and he may surprise you.

Good luck, was also dealing with being pregnant and no sleep until a couple of months ago- it's horrible.

He settles himself to sleep no bother, with a story and a cuddle then we can leave him and it's rare to hear from him again until he wakes at midnight.

When you say expect a little more each night, do you mean expect him to be put back in his bed until a certain time, making it later each night? I thought that might be confusing, was going to just put him back every single time and have 2 or 3 horrid nights.

Thanks very much for the input :)

Yes, I see what you mean- it doesn't really work with rapid return. I suppose I was talking about what we did in terms of encouraging DS to manage without us- firstly it was to fall asleep in our arms without feeding, then it was to fall asleep in the cot being patted, then us sitting in the room, then to settle by himself (in the night as well as bedtime). But you're all sorted there so a useless statement!

Does he have any allergies or food intolerances? We took DS off cows milk 3 months ago. He started sleeping through the following week. Now, if he has dairy he gets a rash and has a disturbed night- I think his poor sleep and the cows milk were definitely connected.

Otherwise, some good old fashioned bribery and rapid return will do it for you, I'm sure. When are you going to do it?

Meant to say, DS was also waking around midnight, I think with tummy ache or at least gurgling guts. It just sounds very familiar...

It sounds as if the midnight waking has become a sort of habit which you will need to break. There is one school of thought which would suggest waking him partially slightly before the time he would normally wake up
himself, then settling him back to sleep to try and break the cycle. Might be worth a try? You could wake him a bit and maybe say that you're going to bed now and you'll see him in the morning. Hope you get some sleep soon.

I am just adding my experience to the advice already offered. DS1 is not a great sleeper and often used to get up in the night, wander in, mess around, play noisily etc.

When I had DS2 it became too much (being up with 2 and then, if DS1 woke DD, 3 kids urghh).

Anyway, I tried rapid return. The first night I did it I was doing it for over an hour...and he had the worst tantrum, screaming, crying, hitting etc and the only thing that kept me sane was thinking "He will get tired before I do"...he was upset because he knew he was going to end up back in bed.

The next night he didn't get up and this continued for a good while and then he started sharing with DD and he started messing around at bed time. So I did rapid return again and it worked, again with a horrible one night of tantrum etc.

He goes back to some night shenanigans every few months but there is not much resistance when we put him back now.

However, I have no luck AT ALL in getting my older 2 children to sleep past 5.30/6 and so have no advice to offer on that one...just sympathy

Oh and for our DS1 it actually worked better if just one of us did the rapid return and (because DH works away a lot) it was me...there was no opportunity of "playing to the gallery" so to speak (DH is the pushover in our house)

Oh, SleepEludesMe, so sorry to hear that you are tired. It sounds like you are doing everything right.

What does your DS say when he does wake in the night? Does he ask for water, food, to come and sleep with you or to have the light on etc etc? Just wondering if you might be able to pinpoint the cause of his wakings. I'd be reluctant to say that it is just habit - until you're sure he doesn't have a fear of bogiemen in the cupboard that he hasn't told you about.

My DS has finally become a reasonable sleeper but I've found nightwakings easier now at 21mo because he will ask for water or banana or cuddles on the occasions when he does wake so I can work out why he has woken up. We co-sleep though which may not be an option for you with a DC2 on the way.

For the future, tips I have heard are that a) a lot of children find nursery really exhausting which makes them sleep better (so your DS starting nursery might help) and b) when they are a little bit older, sharing a room with a sibling can help if children are frightened of sleeping alone.

Thanks all. He wakes when the house goes quiet - then he wants to be in bed with us. He says he wants a cuddle and gets in with us, but then can't lie still. I've halfheartedly stopped cows milk in the past - as a baby he was really windy and unsettled - but never for a week. All good things to try, thank you.

hairymelons, a question ...

How strict were you about cutting out cows milk? DS doesn't have bedtime milk, and other than if he asks for a glass during the day he only has milk with cereal in the morning. Otherwise it's just yoghurt or milk in cooking (which I am sure I read somewhere is better tolerated than "straight" milk).

Awful night last night, but we're waiting for the weekend so he's got a week of nursery under his belt before we start rapid return.

He was big into milk (at least a pint a day) so we replaced his cows milk with goats milk and cut dairy out of his diet. It was a pain at first but we've adjusted to it. We're pretty strict with it now we've seen the results of cutting it out (no more eczema and sleeps all night).

We tried the lactofree stuff but he reacted to that too so it seems he can't tolerate cows milk rather than lactose.

Doesn't sound like your DS has anywhere near as much. Might still be worth a try though, we never imagined it would have any impact on DS's sleep.

We're having the opposite problem at the minute, DS isn't settling well at all. Once he's gone, he's gone for the night but he is insisting on being cuddled or having his hand held until he falls asleep. I can't do this when DS2 arrives. I also can't stand to leave him crying in his room ('Just one more cuddle, mummy please, come back..' aaargh)

Thanks for getting back to me, hairy. I've got a bullet to bite here! We had similar with DS not long ago and we found a way through by promising a check on him and going "to the toilet" or "to sit on the stairs". He'd agree to that, and we always went back as promised. It wore off quite quickly. :)

I would say that all these visitors haven't helped. I get disturbed sleep when I sleep in lots of strange places.

So I do think you are going to have to get into a consistent routine of him going to bed at the same time in the same bed, just to get him back into a regular pattern.

BTW just in case do avoid apples near bed time. They give me vivid dreams, and I read somehwere that they are better at waking you up than coffee.

I would also try lavender oil, it seems to help mine.

I'm going to try the lavender oil, it's the only thing we haven't tried. Apart from earplugs, that is.

ThatDamnDog, I do use a similar method to extricate myself ('Just need to go and feed the cats, will be back in a minute' etc) which was working great but he's just started getting a bit hysterical when I leave the room this last week .

If the lavender oil doesn't calm him down it's going to have to be a bit of brandy in his milk