Highly annoying French ski apartment check out - is this normal or are my family just dirty cochons ?

[rookiemere]

I posted in AIBU over the weekend but didn't get much response so think this might be quite specific to skiing rentals.

I booked a nice apartment through Booking.com and paid 60 euros extra for cleaning as we were leaving early and because I don't want to be cleaning on holiday. The changeover/cleaning lady was lovely when we arrived - sold me a jar of her DDs overinflated costly honey - I asked her what we needed to do on departure, strip the beds was all she said.

So Fast forward to leaving day. Floor is a bit dusty because outside is muddy and I've not cleaned the bathrooms, but nor have we left any skid marks on the toiled, and we've washed and dried dishes and cleaned the kitchen area.

It's a two bed apartment and pretty compact so not a huge job - with my low standards I reckon about an hour to get it presentable, maybe another 30-60 minutes for it to be sparkling, but 60 euros should pay for a couple of hours cleaning I would have thought.

Well I think you can guess what happens next. Cleaning lady arrives and starts muttering about how dirty it is. I said yes that's why we paid the cleaning fee ( bear in mind it's really not that bad). Oh she said, couldn't you have done a little cleaning at least.
With great reluctance she refunded the 500 euros breakage deposit and I hotfooted it out.

I'm still annoyed about it 3 days later. Similar thing happened in a ski rental a few years ago in same resort - again we'd paid the not inconsiderable cleaning fee. I'd like to point out we've never had issues like this in any other country, and I genuinely don't think we're that bad.

My take on it is she hoped to pocket the cleaning fee but hadn't budgeted in any time with changeovers to actually clean. I'm tempted to message the owner, but of course she'll say that we left the place in a disgusting mess so it's her word against ours.

Anyone else had similar experiences? I'm tempted to never rent from French owners again as it seems like a mismatch of expectations.

I had a similar experience a few years ago- booked an Airbnb house and paid the cleaning fee. We left the house in a decent state, stripped the beds etc but didn't spend a long time cleaning at the end.

When the owner's daughter arrived to check us out, she started doing an inventory- you haven't cleaned here, you haven't cleaned there etc. So I said no, I've paid the cleaning fee (which was substantial). She then said she wouldn't let us leave until she had reported us to her mother for not doing a full clean, so I just left. I wonder whether there's a French letting service where the customer is expected to clean and that's what's causing the mix ups. It was very strange and annoying.

You got your money back... I would let it go.

We live in France and often moan about this.. I am not sure what the ingrained history is.. but yes.. it is not entirely unusual.

The most annoying was staying in an apartment for two nights, we had to make up our own beds, strip them in the morning and then have a full formal inventory where they checked not only the standard of the cleaning but counted all of the kitchen items. It was ridiculous. Had similar at a campsite with pre pitched tents, check out by 10 and had a big beery night the night before.. loads of kids and hungover adults.. we received three visits reminding us that we needed to have cleaned properly and have checked out.

We had another one where we paid quite a lot, French ski resort, arrived at the address to find that we were supposed to pick up the keys somewhere else and that the 'somewhere else' was a drive away and was closed for 3 hours on Saturday around lunch time.. none of which was in the booking confirmation info. When we got there.. it was not spotless... so I asked to have the checkout cleaning added to our booking as there was no way I was going to be responsible for their shoddy cleaning.

It's a French thing!! I don't understand it...

We had this in a caravan park in france. We had to be inspected before we could leave.

@ClaudiaWankleman

France is a bit known for mad cleaning expectations (in my experience and from others too). It's weird.

We had one case where the owner turned over each of the mattresses, to check the kids hadn't wet the beds and we would have just turned them over!!!! (which of course we hadn't!) That was the last time we did self cleaning. Now I pay for cleaning - so I don't have the stress of subjective judgement and the fear of not getting my deposit back.

Ive rented 2 or 3 self catering homes every year for the past 9 years in France (we live here). Last summer we did 4 in July and August...

I'd like to choose the cleaning fee but French DH refuses so we clean at the end of each stay. Never had any comments though and have always got deposit back.

We do most of the clean the night before then finish up the next morning

This isn't limited to France. DD and her friend stayed in an Airbnb in Austria a few years ago. They paid the cleaning fee on booking. The owner lived in another city and was lovely through the booking process, there were local caretakers minding the place. The chalet had very limited cleaning materials: a brush and pan, a few dishwasher tabs and an almost empty bottle of fairy. There were very complicated recycling rules. On leaving, they stripped the beds, brushed the floors, washed all their recycling and left it drying on the draining board. On the train to the airport, she got a text from the caretaker saying she and her friend were pigs, dirty pigs and had left the place filthy. She was terribly upset, thinking her ratings would be damaged. We got straight onto Airbnb and the whole thing was resolved - they reported the caretaker to the owner, who was horrified and fired him. DD got a refund of the cleaning fee and got her good review.

Yeh France is weird especially skiing. I've had one insist we use their linen but only for an extra fee but weren't allowed to use our own. One when cleaning was not included complained I hadn't cleaned the windows and handed me vinegar and an old newspaper to do so.
It's not you, it's them.

@InvincibleInvisibility I do suspect a large part of the way I was treated was because I was not French.
It would have taken about two hours tops to get the apartment to a presentable standard- possibly less. Stupid me, giving the cleaner the opportunity to earn 60
Euros instead.

If it makes you feel any better, OP, I am still holding on to a grudge against a gîte-owner from about 15 years ago. She was very concerned for the safety of her furniture ... well, don't fill a family sized gîte (clue is in the name: families are likely to include rumbustious boys) with precious antiques, you numpty.

I have long given up on France as a holiday destination.

It's funny because our friend runs a Gite/hostel type place nearby.

We've never stayed and couldn't quite see the appeal as per person for the three of us a shared room would cost roughly the same as our own apartment. But perhaps the difference is no cleaning required or encountering tutting cleaner!

Yes thinking about it successful previous French holiday rentals were either in Dordogne with Dutch or English owners, or in the same location we've just been to but direct with English owners again.

I stayed in a caravan in Dorset and I remember a French lady asking if she needed to clean the caravan before she checked out. I explained she didn't. Cleaners in England must love it when a French person stays if they clean it from top to bottom before checking out. 60 euros seems plenty for them to actually do some cleaning though

I think it's cultural, it's not really about cleanliness, just anti British attitudes that seem fairly common in France. For this reason I never holiday in France. Lovely country, lots going for it, but not friendly for Brits.

I have had this in France, it's irritating and stupid the way they don't include cleaning and even when they do they have unrealistic expectations. Hotels are ok, gites etc are not. Fortunately, there're tons of other options out there, but I don't do rentals with French owners or French companies any more because of this. And I'm French.

@Seemslikeagoodidea

I think it's cultural, it's not really about cleanliness, just anti British attitudes that seem fairly common in France. For this reason I never holiday in France. Lovely country, lots going for it, but not friendly for Brits.

Absolutely not anti British. Gite owners do this to French people too. It's not even a cultural difference, because French people complain about it, it's just an industry norm that is stupid.

@Lesperance Being French you are in a better position to know the reality of what the situation. My views are coloured by hostility that I have experienced from French people in the past, and friends who have reported similar negative experiences, which makes me think that anti British sentiment is fairly common in France, but maybe in this case it's more of an anti tourist attitude - they want the money but don't really like having tourists in their properties. To be fair, this happens all around the world, in tourist areas, but I also think that there is an anti British attitude from a sizeable proportion of French people. This might be partly down to Brits behaving badly, but seems to also be historical and no doubt Brexit has not helped.

We have a 2 bed apartment rental.

There’s two points from your message.

1. it would be perfectly fine for you to leave it as you have done. We ask for the bins to be emptied and fridge emptied. But nothing else so beds and all cleaning left..
   Everyone does leave it in a pretty good state ie basic wipe of surfaces in kitchen etc. so I wouldn’t worry about her comment

2. however. 1hr to clean is laughable. It takes me a good 4-5hrs to fully clean and prep before next guests. It’s a very tight squeeze if guests leave 10am and new ones in at 3pm. I fully clean everything, including all furniture pulled out, all kitchen cupboards, all kitchen crockery goes in dishwasher, bathroom, kitchen. All bedding off and new on. Towels.Balcony and terrace swept, bbq, sofa etc… everything restocked
   an hour really would just be a basic surface clean which isn’t acceptable or enough imo. I clean myself, but if I had local cleaner it’s 30 per hour. So €120-150 per turnaround. That doesn’t include laundry washing and ironing costs ( I also do myself, but most send out). So most places €60 isn’t really covering the actual cleaning costs, just a token extra.
   We don’t charge any extra cleaning, it’s just included in daily rate.

@Caspianberg I'd no idea French cleaners were making so much - 30 euros an hour is pretty good.

Couple of things about our apartment .

Towels and sheets were 30 euros extra for pretty worn bedding,and beds were not made up on our arrival. I didn't mention this because it's standard for French rentals in my experience. As I said in OP, these were already stripped for her arrival.

There was no terrace or outdoor area.

I agree an hour was perhaps enthusiastic for a proper clean but other than the living room/kitchen area, the place was pretty sparsely equipped so that's the only room where I think much time would be needed.

Your place sounds fabulous, but I'm pretty sure most places don't put all the kitchen crockery through the dishwasher, so I think 2 hrs maybe 2.5 at a push would be the maximum.

I’m French.
In gîtes here most of the time you are supposed to clean. I find it a total pain in the arse. Airb&bs it really depends - if people used to let as a gîte they often expect you to clean ( and even when you do they nitpick) and charge extra for towels and sheets - if they started as Airb&b it’s generally better - but still. I remember doing a long drive during the holidays with friends from a wedding in Brittany ( north west) to a wedding in Nice ( south east). We rented a gite in central France - arrived at 10pm by prior agreement and checked out the next morning at 10 am. We literally took of ours shoes - showered with our own towels - slept in our sleeping bags only using bottom sheets. In the morning we stripped the beds swept the floors, made coffee, washed and dried out mugs and the owner turned up - complained we hadn’t washed all the floors and asked us for 5 euros to replace the coffee and coffee filter we’d used….

That said this winter I stayed in a gite with friends, Emptied the firewood and then we honestly half arsed cleaned before leaving because we’d paid the cleaning fee - the owner turned up we offered money for all the wood we’d burnt, he refused the. thanked us for being so considerate and stripping the beds and sent us back to Paris with eggs from their chickens and a bottle of cider as a thank you …

Yes when renting a flat in France, you are supposed to clean the kitchen(oven and fridge included) , throw the bins, and remove the sheets. The flat needs roughly to be clean. The fees for the cleaning is for it to be perfectly done, not for the basis…
It’s common as well that the landlord comes before the tenant leaves for the checkout. You usually need to book an appointment for that and it takes like 15 minuted. He will check if everything is clean and in order before giving you back the deposit in the next few days by post

@rookiemere - ah sorry, we aren’t in France. Wages are higher probably where we are to be honest. And since covid there’s been a huge lack of people in hospitality so most can command even higher now ( or get nabbed first by the larger hotels)

I really wouldn’t worry about that comment at all. It sounds like it wasn’t a great quality in the first place, and as long as you left it ‘reasonable’ that’s fine.
I certainly don’t expect people to be cleaning fully on holiday.

Maybe the linen cost extra is also a French norm, as I have never heard of it here. Our bedding is all white high quality 400-600 thread count cotton. No extra charge. Takes forever to iron though!

'No I can't do any cleaning I've paid for cleaning'

[quote rookiemere]@Caspianberg I'd no idea French cleaners were making so much - 30 euros an hour is pretty good.

Couple of things about our apartment .

Towels and sheets were 30 euros extra for pretty worn bedding,and beds were not made up on our arrival. I didn't mention this because it's standard for French rentals in my experience. As I said in OP, these were already stripped for her arrival.

There was no terrace or outdoor area.

I agree an hour was perhaps enthusiastic for a proper clean but other than the living room/kitchen area, the place was pretty sparsely equipped so that's the only room where I think much time would be needed.

Your place sounds fabulous, but I'm pretty sure most places don't put all the kitchen crockery through the dishwasher, so I think 2 hrs maybe 2.5 at a push would be the maximum.

[/quote]
That is nonsense €30 an hour for cleaners in France. I'm in Chamonix - height of season and cleaners are pleased to get €20 per hour. There was an advert at the end of December wanting NYD cleaners at £18 and cleaners were offering their services! FWIW I also clean here in Cham & charge €20 ph - it's the going rate.

I run a gite in summer and the french guests leave it completely spotless. Absolutely sparkling. It's a traditional thing, as is the etat de lieu (inventory). The french traditionally leave it in great order (or they don't get the deposit back) the cleaner arrives & makes beds, so obviously huge disappointment when English guests expect the cleaner to clean. Don't take it personally, but I would mention to the owner her cleaner was rude to you.
I also ran an Airbnb in the UK and my cleaning team usually had their work cut out on changeover days.

@BeepBoopBop - you will see above I am not in France. Here €30 is norm. But cleaners are expected to clean more I guess at many places.

Very normal reflection if you are in France.

My parents left a holiday cottage once absolutely perfect (my mum the type to clean from top to bottom etc…) and they were still charged for the cleaning because they had left a lone bottle in the fridge (unopened) thinking the owners might enjoy it.

Since then they’ve stopped cleaning, paid the money and stopped caring. 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️