LGBT children board title

[ArabellaScott]

Given that the Cass Review says social transitioning is not a neutral act, and refers to 'gender incongruent' or 'gender questioning' children, the use of 'trans children' looks startlingly out of date and incorrect on Mumsnet.

The board should be renamed 'LGB and gender questioning children' to better reflect best practice.

The new school guidelines likewise use 'gender incongruent' and 'gender questioning' and not ever 'trans' when referring to children.

This, absolutely.

Yes that was my point really. It would be a board for those with trans or gender questioning offspring without the implication that it's just about minors & 'transkids'. It makes sense in my head anyway.

Excellent post, fully agree.

I agree

I too am a parent of a same sex attracted autistic teen. I agree.

Same/both sex attracted teens may have some cross over with gender questioning children, but there needs to be a separation so that the focus remains on the topic of same/both sex attracted children.

Surely the googling thing is a red herring! As PP have said, pages can be tagged with words that don't actually appear on the page, so the board could still return hits on the word trans, especially given that the word will appear in posts in any case. It isn't just going to disappear from google results because of a name change!

Yes, I wasn't sure if that was possible. That solves that problem then.

Bit of a tangent, but I think a relevant analogy for the people saying the name change will stop parents finding suport.

My DC is autistic, with the kind of profile that would have been called aspergers syndrome 20 years ago. Then the problems with the terminology and the split of the condition became known, so they changed the vocabulary used, and it's fine. Sometimes I come across old resources that use the old terminology and sometimes I meet parents of older teens or young adults with aspergers diagnosis, who had to adapt to using different words when seeking support. At no point has anyone been unable find suport because of the wording used.

Another example would be at the time "the spastic society" became scope, there would have been hundreds of people calling their loved ones spastic, not maliciously, but because that was the word used at the time. Times changed, best practice wording changed, and common speech changed to keep up.
(Apologies to anyone offended by my use of the word).

Parents currently calling their children trans aren't doing so to cause harm, it's just the word they were given to use, before it was understood to be harmful. But that's no reason to keep using harmful terminology, now we know better, we should do better and Mumsnet is exactly the sort of organisation that should be supporting the change.

Exactly. Language evolves and helping to support this doesn't equate to immediately correcting someone and/or being insensitive to those seeking info on their 'trans children'. The two can work in tandem.

Those are two good analogies, yep.

Some people are reading malicious motivations into a change in terminology.

But changing 'LGBT' to 'gender questioning' is accurately reflectng a change of use in the term that has been arrived at by the department of education and the NHS after a long and extensive period of consultation and review.

Thread titles on their own should be sufficient for any OP to direct their concerns, and to have appropriate answers on these. When they post they can specify the nature of their query - you don't need separate boards for that, unless you are going to propose separate boards for gay men, lesbians bisexuals next? If you leave the LGB together is your next concern going to be that the presence of the B might cause Lesbians to think they are bisexual?

I say, 'should' be sufficient above, because we can see the political motivations already in the LGBT board....so we have OP there at the moment who is concerned about bullying of her gay son...there are posters already advising that he stay away from LGBT groups in case he is encouraged to transition. So it is external political opinions that are muddying the waters there. Genuine posters can keep their concerns on track - but of course not everyone contributing is genuinely concerned for an OP's situation; they are working to their own agenda and using threads for this purpose.

Mumsnet creating separate boards will just be giving transphobic posters a hand out with their homework by directing them quickly to harass posters there. Not a great look.

I see no transphobia in these discussions. Just parents talking about children and children's needs and how their safety might be enhanced by using more accurate language to describe childhood uncertainty, distress and mental vulnerability. The OP suggests an amendment to the language, not separate boards.

With some exceptions it's disappointing to see opponents of acknowledging a shift in language throwing around frantic accusations of political motivations and transphobia. Children and posters on here (all of whom are genuine unless MNHQ determines otherwise) deserve so much better.

I'm not sure that wanting to keep options open for a child and avoid steering them down any one path is 'political' or a dodgy agenda. Unless Cass is political and dodgy?

It's undeniable I'm afraid that LGBT organisations are, as a matter of fact, entirely organised around gender ideology and exclusionary of those who do not accept this, including homosexual people who wish to partner exclusively on the basis of sex. And that Cass mentions that young gay teens of both sexes are being led to consider changing sex as opposed to being happy gay. The interests of the gender identity belief system and homosexuality are not happy partners at all.

Yes, parents need to be aware that there are negatives to this situation, and yes children's interests need to be protected. This isn't 'political' or a negative thing, surely?

'we can see the political motivations already in the LGBT board....so we have OP there at the moment who is concerned about bullying of her gay son...there are posters already advising that he stay away from LGBT groups in case he is encouraged to transition. So it is external political opinions that are muddying the waters there.'

Are you assuming posters there, or here on this thread are just sharing 'external political opinions'? You don't think they're/we're parents, or part of the LGB ourselves? Or are we only supposed to have certain views and beliefs or we're not allowed in the LGBT 'community'? You do understand that LGB people are parents, and have 'political' views too, often ones that are deeply personal at the same time? And that parents with LGB or 'gender questioning' children are often posting on all of these threads?!

Agree.

unless you are going to propose separate boards for gay men, lesbians bisexuals next?

This thread, and the concern within, is about children, not adults.

If you leave the LGB together is your next concern going to be that the presence of the B might cause Lesbians to think they are bisexual?
no because that would be ridiculous, they’re all based on same sex attraction. The problem with lumping in trans is it is completely at odds with same sex attraction as the whole thing is based on gender rather than sex.

I’m a lesbian. I’m bloody grateful I did my coming out in the late 90s when there was still such a thing as lesbian community & it was taken for granted that lesbians were all the same sex.

Since then I’ve heard heartbreaking stories from younger lesbians about what it’s like for them now. Not least a Just Like Us ambassador talking about her childhood, when gender stereotypes were forced on her and being attracted to other girls was utterly unacceptable.

Then Just Like Us came to her school… and did she realise that she was a lesbian who didn’t conform to stupid stereotypes and that this was absolutely fine? No. She realised she was non binary, because obviously she couldn’t be a girl. And my friends & I seemed to be the only ones there who didn’t think this was a happy story.

Separate the B from the LG because....

No, that really doesn't work as an analogy and continues to try denial as a means of covering up issues.

If an L person, a straight person or a G person (or a T person) wishes to say they now feel they are bi, then the responses are going to be anything from a shrug and not much interest to positively supportive.

If an L or G person however tries to say within a gender identity focused situation or actually wherever gender identity focused people happen to be that they are homosexual and only wishing to join a social group or date people of the same sex, and are not willing to date people of the opposite sex based on the person's identity choice? Well no. It's not going to be a shrug, or supportive, is it?

I'm a lesbian who has been told plenty of times on the MN boards that I am wrong for wishing to be homosexual and refusing to engage in what I perceive as straight dating or straight sex, because I have a duty (as put by a well known speaker on radio 4 and by the head of Stonewall of the time) to 'learn to cope' with (unwanted) straight sex, and to not be 'a sexual racist'. These are not positive or healthy attitudes for a gay child to be encountering. They're horrible enough to deal with as an adult confident in my sexuality.

It is important that gay children and their parents are able to explore their developing sense of sexuality neutrally for themselves, in a positive way, and to develop the way that works for them without being exclusively framed and managed in the way that gender ideology would prefer. I'm not sure why this neutrality is perceived as hostile.

The suggestion of splitting the B from the L & G is simply distraction and it is a weak emotionally manipulative tactic.

@suggestionsplease1

Mumsnet creating separate boards will just be giving transphobic posters a hand out with their homework by directing them quickly to harass posters there. Not a great look.

Why are people so quick to make accusations of transphobia? I see no evidence of that on this thread/from the OP.

As I posted up thread:

Lumping children who are gender questioning in with those who are LGB is actually unfair on those children. They deserve their own board.

A separate board is to benefit both LGB and Gender-questioning children. Not to vilify one over the other.

And, of course, anyone harrassing another poster should be reported to MNHQ.

Another vote for Arabella suggestion

I agree with the OP.

And yet we know that whilst sexual orientation and gender identity are conceptually distinct, the lived reality and concerns for many children and young people are more nuanced and complex than that, and family discussions reflect that.

We also know that a higher proportion of young gay people also assert a trans identity.

We know that some young people initially assert a trans identity and then later feel that they that gay/lesbian/bisexual fits them better.

We know some young people experience the reverse.

Given this complexity of lived experience how does it make sense to segregate the boards? Where does a person post when they are grappling with both areas? Are they going to policed into another board?

It is also the case that the discrimination that gay young people and trans young people is similar in nature, often focusing on differences from gender norms. There is a commonality of experience and segregating the boards should not be necessary when a thread title can make clear the direction of concern as need be.

Yeah well funnily enough in the LGBTQ community many people think that these efforts to split the T from the rest and pit people against each other is an emotionally manipulative tactic which is part of a broader divide and conquer approach.

Horses for courses eh.

You don't believe that lesbians who do not want to be in lesbian groups with or date men should be permitted to do so?

Is it still an LGBTQ community when those gay people non conforming to gender identity have been excluded? Or has it just become a group united by a shared belief in gender identity?