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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Corpus 2

766 replies

TokyoBouncyBall · 11/05/2024 11:48

A summary would be good and I might do one later but Aston, data scraping, astonishing lack of contrition…

OP posts:
Thread gallery
64
TokyoBouncyBall · 14/06/2024 09:54

EdenPalmersTerfAuntie · 14/06/2024 06:50

@DrBlackbird "cutnpastin" I know we're not happy with Aston but calling them cutns seems a bit rude.

On the other hand, it's exactly what Aston have done...

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 14/06/2024 09:57

I'm curious about the reputational damage to Aston, and why they seem so cavalier about it.

Bearing in mind Mumsnet has 9 million users, many of whom are - guess what? - mothers! With offspring that may be seeking a university.

It's bloody weird, really, to accuse a great chunk of potential customers of hate crime.

It'd be interesting to see what impression Mumsnet users as a whole have gained of Aston University.

DrBlackbird · 14/06/2024 09:58

I’ve just read Eysenbachand and Till (2001) and it gets worse. Not only has Eden cited a 23 year old paper (which is a 2 page BMJ paper) as their specious justification for not seeking MN permission for data scraping, but Eden has completely misrepresented the whole premise of this paper.

I’ve copied quite a bit to give an indication of the direction of their arguments:

Internet communities' members do not expect to be research subjects

Although publication on the internet may have parallels to publishing a letter in a newspaper or saying something in a public meeting, there are important psychological differences, and people participating in an online discussion group cannot always be assumed to be “seeking public visibility.” On the internet the dichotomy of private and public sometimes may not be appropriate, and communities may lie in between.
**
Several measures can be used to estimate the perceived level of privacy. Firstly, if a subscription or some form of registration is required to gain access to a discussion group then most of the subscribers are likely to regard the group as a “private place” in cyberspace.
**
Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, the perception of privacy depends on an individual group's norms and codes, target audience, and aim, often laid down in the “frequently asked questions” or information files of an internet community.

Such as MN T&Cs?

…it should be considered whether publication of the results (especially when mentioning the group name) may negatively affect group members or harm the community as a whole.

Such as misrepresenting and labelling MN and the entire FWR as transphobes expressing hate crime for which actual humans have been arrested? The authors go on to suggest best practice that includes:

Obtaining permission from the “list owner” (the individual responsible for maintaining the mailing list) or moderator (if any) is rarely adequate… [but they] may know the online community better than the researcher, so they can be a useful starting point to find out what the group norms are and what would be the best way of obtaining informed consent from group members.

As other researchers interested in MN data have done. The short paper concludes (my emphasis):

Privacy and confidentiality
**
The internet holds various pitfalls for researchers, who can easily and unintentionally violate the privacy of individuals. For example, by quoting the exact words of a newsgroup participant, a researcher may breach the participant's confidentiality even if the researcher removes any personal information… Participants should therefore always be approached to give their explicit consent to be quoted verbatim...
**
Conclusions
**
The main problem with using internet communities for research is that researchers may have difficulty separating spaces regarded as private from spaces regarded as public. We recommend that researchers and institutional review boards should carefully consider these points when developing and reviewing research protocols and should involve members of the group they want to study in these considerations...

It is appears to me that Eden (and possibly Nikki) strongly suspected that permission would not be granted but felt FWR and other posters ought to be outed as transphobic to such an extent that, in my opinion, they both have appeared to disregard key ethical and methodological issues in terms of consent. I’d have failed a first year student for misrepresenting their key ethical justification for not seeking permission.

Edited to clarify this is my opinion and conjecture, not fact.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/06/2024 10:03

DrBlackbird · 14/06/2024 09:58

I’ve just read Eysenbachand and Till (2001) and it gets worse. Not only has Eden cited a 23 year old paper (which is a 2 page BMJ paper) as their specious justification for not seeking MN permission for data scraping, but Eden has completely misrepresented the whole premise of this paper.

I’ve copied quite a bit to give an indication of the direction of their arguments:

Internet communities' members do not expect to be research subjects

Although publication on the internet may have parallels to publishing a letter in a newspaper or saying something in a public meeting, there are important psychological differences, and people participating in an online discussion group cannot always be assumed to be “seeking public visibility.” On the internet the dichotomy of private and public sometimes may not be appropriate, and communities may lie in between.
**
Several measures can be used to estimate the perceived level of privacy. Firstly, if a subscription or some form of registration is required to gain access to a discussion group then most of the subscribers are likely to regard the group as a “private place” in cyberspace.
**
Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, the perception of privacy depends on an individual group's norms and codes, target audience, and aim, often laid down in the “frequently asked questions” or information files of an internet community.

Such as MN T&Cs?

…it should be considered whether publication of the results (especially when mentioning the group name) may negatively affect group members or harm the community as a whole.

Such as misrepresenting and labelling MN and the entire FWR as transphobes expressing hate crime for which actual humans have been arrested? The authors go on to suggest best practice that includes:

Obtaining permission from the “list owner” (the individual responsible for maintaining the mailing list) or moderator (if any) is rarely adequate… [but they] may know the online community better than the researcher, so they can be a useful starting point to find out what the group norms are and what would be the best way of obtaining informed consent from group members.

As other researchers interested in MN data have done. The short paper concludes (my emphasis):

Privacy and confidentiality
**
The internet holds various pitfalls for researchers, who can easily and unintentionally violate the privacy of individuals. For example, by quoting the exact words of a newsgroup participant, a researcher may breach the participant's confidentiality even if the researcher removes any personal information… Participants should therefore always be approached to give their explicit consent to be quoted verbatim...
**
Conclusions
**
The main problem with using internet communities for research is that researchers may have difficulty separating spaces regarded as private from spaces regarded as public. We recommend that researchers and institutional review boards should carefully consider these points when developing and reviewing research protocols and should involve members of the group they want to study in these considerations...

It is appears to me that Eden (and possibly Nikki) strongly suspected that permission would not be granted but felt FWR and other posters ought to be outed as transphobic to such an extent that, in my opinion, they both have appeared to disregard key ethical and methodological issues in terms of consent. I’d have failed a first year student for misrepresenting their key ethical justification for not seeking permission.

Edited to clarify this is my opinion and conjecture, not fact.

Edited

@JustineMumsnet it would be interesting to know Aston's response to this.

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 14/06/2024 10:15

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DdUwQrByg

it occurred to me that Eden Palmer should probably watch this…

(Lee was a transman who spent some time identifying as NB as a step down but after reading Holly’s book ‘Gender Critical Feminism’ Lee now self describes as a ‘weird woman’.

Weird is used in a neutral to good way.

Being a weird woman is extremely freeing, I recommend all ‘nonbinary AFABs’ try it out.

Is Non-Binary Just Confused Feminism? | Lee Hazel & Holly Lawford-Smith

This is a cross-posting of a video posted to Twitter by @DetransWomanAus on the 7th of June, 2024. We recorded it on the 4th of June, 2024.Link to the origin...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DdUwQrByg

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 14/06/2024 10:18

Here’s Lee’s intro to the video:

Corpus 2
Corpus 2
Corpus 2
AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 14/06/2024 10:24

And lastly, here’s Freya India’s Substack:

https://www.freyaindia.co.uk/

If Eden is lurking this thread I hope Eden can do us the courtesy of watching the video,.

(I still don’t consent to Eden/Aston using my MN posts tho)

GIRLS | Freya India | Substack

Girlhood in the Modern World. Click to read GIRLS, by Freya India, a Substack publication with tens of thousands of subscribers.

https://www.freyaindia.co.uk/

Ormally · 14/06/2024 13:10

cutnpaster seems even ruder than the good old Anglo=Saxon anatomical word. I like it - it gets to the intellectual shallows rather than the part known for having more sensitivity and depth.

AstonUniversityAreCutnpasters · 14/06/2024 14:33

Cutnpasters! Aston University are complete and utter cutnpasters!

DrBlackbird · 14/06/2024 14:37

Participants should therefore always be approached to give their explicit consent to be quoted verbatim...

Although, here’s the problem for a certain Phd student. On the one hand, they don’t want to seek consent for quoting verbatim. On the other hand, how can linguistic analysis involve paraphrasing? Plus, if one was inclined to label dozens of posters transphobes, how can one ‘prove’ this by paraphrasing? Which by definition involves subjective interpretation.

Hard to see this as anything other than the tail wagging the dog. As always though, weak methodology is not the PhD’s fault per se. Rather you’d have to look at the training and guidance received.

Edited to add 🤣 at the Aston cutnpasting’ers.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 16/06/2024 13:34

DrBlackbird · 14/06/2024 09:58

I’ve just read Eysenbachand and Till (2001) and it gets worse. Not only has Eden cited a 23 year old paper (which is a 2 page BMJ paper) as their specious justification for not seeking MN permission for data scraping, but Eden has completely misrepresented the whole premise of this paper.

I’ve copied quite a bit to give an indication of the direction of their arguments:

Internet communities' members do not expect to be research subjects

Although publication on the internet may have parallels to publishing a letter in a newspaper or saying something in a public meeting, there are important psychological differences, and people participating in an online discussion group cannot always be assumed to be “seeking public visibility.” On the internet the dichotomy of private and public sometimes may not be appropriate, and communities may lie in between.
**
Several measures can be used to estimate the perceived level of privacy. Firstly, if a subscription or some form of registration is required to gain access to a discussion group then most of the subscribers are likely to regard the group as a “private place” in cyberspace.
**
Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, the perception of privacy depends on an individual group's norms and codes, target audience, and aim, often laid down in the “frequently asked questions” or information files of an internet community.

Such as MN T&Cs?

…it should be considered whether publication of the results (especially when mentioning the group name) may negatively affect group members or harm the community as a whole.

Such as misrepresenting and labelling MN and the entire FWR as transphobes expressing hate crime for which actual humans have been arrested? The authors go on to suggest best practice that includes:

Obtaining permission from the “list owner” (the individual responsible for maintaining the mailing list) or moderator (if any) is rarely adequate… [but they] may know the online community better than the researcher, so they can be a useful starting point to find out what the group norms are and what would be the best way of obtaining informed consent from group members.

As other researchers interested in MN data have done. The short paper concludes (my emphasis):

Privacy and confidentiality
**
The internet holds various pitfalls for researchers, who can easily and unintentionally violate the privacy of individuals. For example, by quoting the exact words of a newsgroup participant, a researcher may breach the participant's confidentiality even if the researcher removes any personal information… Participants should therefore always be approached to give their explicit consent to be quoted verbatim...
**
Conclusions
**
The main problem with using internet communities for research is that researchers may have difficulty separating spaces regarded as private from spaces regarded as public. We recommend that researchers and institutional review boards should carefully consider these points when developing and reviewing research protocols and should involve members of the group they want to study in these considerations...

It is appears to me that Eden (and possibly Nikki) strongly suspected that permission would not be granted but felt FWR and other posters ought to be outed as transphobic to such an extent that, in my opinion, they both have appeared to disregard key ethical and methodological issues in terms of consent. I’d have failed a first year student for misrepresenting their key ethical justification for not seeking permission.

Edited to clarify this is my opinion and conjecture, not fact.

Edited

Excellent analysis @DrBlackbird and thank you for doing the work to establish whether the reason given for not seeking consent stood up to scrutiny: it doesn't.

So both Phd student, supervisor and the Aston "ethics" approval board (sarcastic air quotes) at the very best haven't bothered to do due diligence, at worst have deliberately sought to provide a spurious justification for politically motivated defamation and breaking the law.

Aside from GDPR, defamation law, and copyright law, I do have to say that the academic rigour shown is.... searching for the right words... piss poor.

SinnerBoy · 16/06/2024 21:18

AstonUniversityAreCutnpasters · 14/06/2024 14:33

Cutnpasters! Aston University are complete and utter cutnpasters!

😂👏

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2024 09:14

They sure are.

MaidOfAle · 17/06/2024 10:43

So, I got an email from MNHQ, telling me that they were pulling the posts that I made under a different username. Apparently, a certain Aston staff member will dish it out by supervising an entire PhD research project defaming us, not to mention that strangely-timed TwiX banner change, but can't take being mocked by an obvious parody username.

Remind me again how there's no cancel culture?

MaidOfAle · 17/06/2024 10:52

BTW, I do not blame Mumsnet for pulling the posts.

lcakethereforeIam · 17/06/2024 10:58

So, they're still reading then.

There is a shite University
Based in, what's called, England's 2nd city
And as no.2
Is a euphemism for poo
But it's really just Aston that's shitty

Sorry, now I'm being childish 😁.

UtilitarianNameChange · 17/06/2024 11:00

Same.

I’ve asked MN to reinstate posts using my new name instead.

No shade on MN for taking this action but it’s been interesting as an experiment for feeling where the boundaries are.

Aston are proper wankers.

lcakethereforeIam · 17/06/2024 11:04

Aston are proper wankers
Or, in rhyming slang, 'merchant bankers'
They don't have the grace
To the people in this place
You'd think having scraped us, they'd thank us.

cancelledduetoillnessapparently · 17/06/2024 11:25

They don’t like it up‘em clearly.

Fine to be all flowery about our names and posts but not so funny if the shoe is on the other foot and people may link them to posts.

Not only are they thievey scrapers but they are hypocritical too.

ThreeWordHarpy · 17/06/2024 11:29

And as I said elsewhere, by their actions they have influenced a change in behaviour in their subjects, which isn’t very good research/ science.

ArabellaScott · 17/06/2024 11:33

MaidOfAle · 17/06/2024 10:43

So, I got an email from MNHQ, telling me that they were pulling the posts that I made under a different username. Apparently, a certain Aston staff member will dish it out by supervising an entire PhD research project defaming us, not to mention that strangely-timed TwiX banner change, but can't take being mocked by an obvious parody username.

Remind me again how there's no cancel culture?

That's interesting.

So they think they're entitled to study us, steal our words and try to defame us, but they object if we start to study them, talk about them?

I see.

Aston, we haven't even started yet.

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 17/06/2024 11:57

I’m starting to think we should find a small delegation to go to Aston and politely introduce ourselves to the whole department - thus scuppering the entire ‘oh, it’s just anon posters online’ thing.

No, it’s the contingent of middle aged ladies currently eating a packed lunch of Tunnocks outside the vice chancellors office.

Boiledbeetle · 17/06/2024 11:59

To continue on from Arabella's 'Aston, we haven't even started yet'...

Aston we haven't even started yet!
You came for us, and we don't forget.

You decided to use our words, our posts
You didn't ask us, or the website hosts

You think it's fine to trash our name
Yet spit out your dummy if we do the same

Aston Uni shame on you
And yes! Currently we think you're poo!

popebishop · 17/06/2024 12:06

ThreeWordHarpy · 17/06/2024 11:29

And as I said elsewhere, by their actions they have influenced a change in behaviour in their subjects, which isn’t very good research/ science.

Absolutely.
The body of data has been irreversibly changed, due to a chain of events that started with us being told we are something we don't believe we are.

If only there was some kind of parallel there...

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