Corpus 2

[TokyoBouncyBall]

A summary would be good and I might do one later but Aston, data scraping, astonishing lack of contrition…

Hi all,
We share your concerns about the assurances Aston have thus far provided and are currently waiting on a further response with regard to the smaller dataset and how they are proposing to use it/ ensure that no individual can be identified from that use. We can't put every correspondence up here for obvious reasons but our lawyers are on the case and we are very much determined to uphold our legal rights over the data. When we can say more, we will.

Thanks @JustineMumsnet, appreciate this further response.

Thanks @JustineMumsnet it is helpful and reassuring to know you are still trying to address this egregious data theft. Your last post read as if you were telling us you'd done whatever you could and that was that, so it's good to know it's not over.

Good to hear this is ongoing, thank you.

@JustineMumsnet many thanks for the update, but also how they are proposing to use it/ ensure that no individual can be identified from that use doesn’t feel that this addresses the heart of the problem.

First, just because they anonymise names does not mean that Aston cannot identity posters. Indeed, that is the whole purpose of some of their research. Given that Nicki and Eden have decided that, according to their definition, many posters are transphobic, their ability to identify posters is concerning. Surely we all know that nothing on the internet is completely anonymous depending on the skill of those doing the tracking down and very few MN posters have the tech skills of Lisbeth Salander to hide their digital tracks.

Second, Eden broke at least some of MN T&Cs and the outcome of that ought to be the erasure of that database and not a modification in how they use it. It’s unfortunate that Eden would be unable to complete their PhD in a timely manner but that is the fault/responsibility of their supervisor and the university in approving unethical methodology.

They shouldn't be using it AT ALL.

That's the point.

Examples of threads on 'the wider forum' that make points independently of this issue, but that have been brought up in connection with the problematic 'Corpus' matters, where a few posters wonder about the question of how anonymous or identifiable they are with the posting info they provide:

• Thread with title 'Seeing as it's anonymous, where is your vote going', asking where people are veering politically - many responses.

• Thread that is concerned about intimate photos of body parts being posted for medical points of view, where even GP surgeries advise not to email such material to a doctor for the patient's/ the child of the patient's own good.

(both in active on 12 Jun)

In light of the background of the data scraping and awareness of parallel versions of posts that externals are upholding for research purposes separately in a corpus, reading these threads is a sobering experience, as they could be so exposing.

Thanks @JustineMumsnet for latest update.

I don’t care about Eden, they along with others at Aston are obviously on a crusade, they’re unhinged to think they can carry on like this, their research is completely flawed, what a absolute shit show, such an embarrassment they are to their field, already many articulate & intelligent women here have exposed the massive flaws in their research but then trans activists don’t care for science & truth do they. They would do well to remember that they are in the UK & not the country that their big state funders come from, laws are different here, shouting transphobic & bigot at every woman who discusses her rights & traumas won’t wash. Think they can carry on with trying to silence our legitimate views that are recognised rightly so under UK law, paint us as the villains, compare us to incels & terrorists, they need to think again.

We made those posts and we don’t consent to Aston using them, for anything. Ever.

THIS.

The very purpose of the PhD is defamatory.

Thank you Justine for the further update. I suspect you wouldn't need help if a court case was in the offing, but if I'm wrong on that, you know how much women on here like to support crowdfunders upholding the safeguarding and rights of women and children. And this would very much qualify.

Just to be clear I don't consent, Aston or whoever else wants to scrape MN data. Explicitly and always refuse consent.

Well, quite.

If they go ahead with this the reputation of Aston will be in the gutter, unfortunately so will Mumsnets!

It’s unfortunate that Eden would be unable to complete their PhD in a timely manner but that is the fault/responsibility of their supervisor and the university in approving unethical methodology.

Indeed. At my institution, research that needs ethical approval and doesn’t have it, is considered invalid. It would certainly not be acceptable to include such data - or conclusions drawn from them - in a PhD. And it wouldn’t be acceptable for TEF or the like.

It also strikes me that the very research question on which the thesis research is based and the proposed hypothesis, are both badly conceptualised as they present the hypothesis as fact. In short “MN is transphobic. Let me show you how.”

Not only that, it was described as ‘hate crimes’. I still can’t get over that.

How can this be considered an ethical use of sensitive personal data which could be identifying? It's not just that they haven't bothered to get consent, it's that people are saying in no uncertain terms that they do not consent.

Just seen the updates on this thread and people are saying that they don’t consent. I don’t even know what they are looking for really but I am saying I do not consent to Aston using any of my posts or replies in any of the boards on mumsnet or other social media. I do not consent to them trying to work out who I am either. If I say it on this thread, which presumably is being monitored by Aston and Mumsnet lawyers, does that mean they can’t use any of my words in any context? To make it clear: I do not give Aston, or anyone studying with Aston, permission.

This is for my own reference so I don’t forget which page this link is on. Also going to bookmark it.
Point is, Aston did give ethical permission. In my opinion, there are many issues here, but from the PhD student’s perspective, the study has been approved.
The fundamental ethical and possibly also legal issue is that the use was and is against the terms and conditions of the website; and therefore users of MN cannot possibly be deemed to give any kind of consent or expect their data to be used in this way.
There are two things which could outweigh this issue potentially - one, if Aston argue that the research is in the public interest and this outweighs the lack of consent (so they argue it is criminal or hateful, for example, aligning it with extremism and abuse on other dark web sites) and two, if MN negotiate on the conditions of use and/or give retrospective permission.

It is difficult to see how use of the relationships board and LGBTQ children is in the public interest or the benefits outweigh the problems. FWR is of public interest, given feminism is a longer term historical and current movement, and there is clear political and advocacy engagement from users. However, recognising that point is different from setting out to prove the board is hateful.

If MN retrospectively give permission or negotiate on the conditions, then I think this is still problematic ethically from the point of view of users not being aware at the time they were writing, and not being able to withdraw posts (The data has already been scraped).

From that foi

‘Gender critical’ feminism is an umbrella term that covers those who object to a range of changes for transgender people from legal rights to social acceptance.

Ffs!

They really don't understand do they!

No they do not.

They don’t understand that it’s not always about them. Women want to discuss women’s rights and issues using language which describes us.

Point is, Aston did give ethical permission.

There are reasons Aston is not a highly regarded university.

Haha, indeed.

Gender critical’ feminism is an umbrella term that covers those who object to a range of changes for transgender people from legal rights to social acceptance.

Gender critical feminism only applies to feminists. There are other people who "object to a range of changes for transgender people". The majority of the population in fact.

I know I've said it before but who do Aston University think have the most sway over where their kids go to university? The university or their mother?

Any child mentioning Aston University to their mum is going to be told, "I'm not giving you a penny towards your uni costs if you decide to go there they are a very naughty university!"

Certainly those who know how to use the search function on mumsnet! For years to come this shit show is what is going to show up in the search results.

Slow hand clap Aston!