Mumsnet Corpus

[TokyoBouncyBall]

Not a TAAT, but a bit of googling as a result of a now deleted thread has led me to this:

https://fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18

I note it says that the License is uncertain. Can you confirm that you have given permission for posts to be used in this way, or is there something that Aston might like to look into?

I note it says Users who wish to access this dataset must make a detailed application to FoLD and the researcher, as well as potentially gain additional agreement from an external organisation before they can be approved for access.

Given one of the uses it is being put to, I think it is a bit dubious to say the least.

All their data, once published, will be identifiable if the post is extremely unique. All people have to do is paste the text into Google and they've found the poster.

Yes, I won't repeat it here, but I easily managed to find the original post from another research paper citing mumsnet.

We don’t yet know if GDPR expert lawyers for each party would :

consider our data pseudonymised or anonymised

consider that whatever data processing conducted by Aston has re-identified data subjects

No, I know. I'm just saying that people have the right to challenge misuse of their data.

Aston Uni have responded and offered a call with their Vice Chancellor to explain the reasons for the research, how they manage ethical approval and protect privacy and data

VC Aleks Subic describes himself as a global leader in the use of tech and innovation in higher education. I imagine he’ll be only too pleased to put us at ease using short words and simple sentences.

Also he apparently ‘passionately champions’ women in STEMM Fellowships. Why do women need champions Aleks? What is it about women that make them require that specific help?

Perhaps he could (man)splain his institutions view on freedom of speech in discussions about women’s rights, spaces and sex based provision.

Arabella most definitely! She's coherent!

I'm way to "what the actual fuck do you think you are fucking playing at you absolute demented fuckwits" to be let out in public.

Is the Vice Chancellor the best person to speak to? I imagine he's not as au fait with the technical side of the research. Might be good to ask if Professor Tim Grant could join the call, @JustineMumsnet

Given the VC’s biography he is at the top of the tree in relation to use of tech and higher education. He may well be very familiar with the universities use of data and technology. I’d like to hear him justify the way it’s being used here though.

It will only be identifiable to the username, if they only look at one post.

The problem comes when multiple posts from the same user are put together, each containing separate information which when taken together, could identify an individual person in real life.

Now of course, anyone can currently search mumsnet, look up all your posts and try and figure out who you are.

But it is pretty laborious and would have to be done on a case by case basis.

The likelihood of someone choosing a username and figuring out who they are is low.

But if data/website scraping technology is used and then data is processed using very high performance computing (possibly AI software tools as well), specifically to track individuals and their use of language over time, for thousands of individuals, the likelihood of “joining the dots” increased significantly.

And unlike a nosy Parker looking at someone’s posts, a University must hold itself to the highest standards of research ethics and governance and adhere to the GDPR legislation and the law.

The VC is the highest ranking person in the university. (The chancellor is just a figurehead).

This is just an opening conversation and they are matching Justine’s seniority and standing within her own company like for like.

This will likely then go to more technical experts and lawyers for both parties.

How is he defining 'women'?

I hope Mumsnet brings a lawyer along to the conversation, and records it.

But if data/website scraping technology is used and then data is processed using very high performance computing (possibly AI software tools as well), specifically to track individuals and their use of language over time, for thousands of individuals, the likelihood of “joining the dots” increased significantly.

Exactly. If you watch the video of the 2019 round table I posted upthread, it explains some of what the forensic analysts do when a crime is involved. And I imagine it's progressed in 5 years.

@Boiledbeetle i dont see what you're trying to get at 😁

This!

So this PhD student publishes the study. And there’s a gotcha list to what they have decided are hate crimes and the persons common links. Even if they leave out the persons name, some fanatical man on the internet can use that ‘intel’ to easily join the dots by a quick google.

They have already decided mumsnet is transphobic in the title of the PhD. So either mumsnet is complicit in hiding criminals or this is going to cause innocent people a lot of harm when it’s published.

Every single woman who has ever posted on Mumsnet has now been deemed guilty of crime by association by virtue of Aston university permitting that PhD title and its use in a public presentation.

It is possible that even women who have just lurked, maybe used a recipe, or laughed at a slightly over the top aibu? are now thought criminals.

Cn u ask for to chamge my watr botl?

Has ben 2 days n tasting musty.

How do you protect privacy when looking at posts with identifiable information? We know people have recognised situations/people/places from information in posts because they have an external link to those things. Posters often request deletion of threads for this reason. Or they post on time-limited boards. It is also often incredibly sensitive data or situations they are discussing that could still cause harm if it came up years later. And yes, they could be people related to the Aston researchers. This material must be deleted from all their servers and students computers.

This.

No. The answer is no

I am NOT happy.

And I SHOULD be protected by the law.

And it seems I am not.

I DO NOT want to be contacting the university to remove my data because I find that in itself infringes on my privacy.

I would like consideration to be given when discussing the next steps with Aston, that there will be a very heavy expectation that we will "be kind", and I hope that such misogynistic stereotypes will be given short shrift.

No doubt a great deal of trouble and effort has been spent by the University and individuals in research using the mumsnet dataset and it would be a terrible blow for them to not receive permission to use it, but they could have asked. When people don't ask in these situations it's generally not because they "didn't think" or "forgot". It's because they think you'll say no.

I don't think Justine is the sort of woman to be soft soaped very easily, but I also don't really think the world will be a sadder place if there has to be a radical rethink about the piece of work that led to this whole debacle.

All of this. Absolutely.

No is a complete sentence.

I should not be having to work this out retrospectively.

Given that MN have said it was against their T&C if this is allowed to stand then we have no protection whatsoever against the next chancer that does it and the tries to circumnavigative the T&C's and the law by applying pressure on MNHQ or users.

I have had ENOUGH of this manipulation of the law to the detriment of women.

Can I just check, is there supposed to have been one site-wide data scrape in 2018 & nothing else? Because the original details of the 'transphobia' thing talked about looking at MN over 3 time periods, the latest of which was 2018-2023. Has anyone mentioned a post-2018 data scrape?

Aston prides itself on partnership with business. Does the VC Aleks Subic take data from other companies websites and store it without them knowing? Are any other companies being named by Aston PhD students as supporters of Hate Crime? Partners of the university should be made aware that they don’t play nicely.

Remember that Aston Universtity is a public authority, and the European Convention on Human Rights Article 8 state that

“Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.”

This a the state breaching our human rights.

Can I just check, is there supposed to have been one site-wide data scrape in 2018 & nothing else? Because the original details of the 'transphobia' thing talked about looking at MN over 3 time periods, the latest of which was 2018-2023. Has anyone mentioned a post-2018 data scrape?

In 2019 Kredens mentioned that his project was funded for another year or so. It could have been extended I guess.