The "Hate Speech" button - really?

[AmaryllisNightAndDay]

I just reported a post to MNHQ and one of the buttons is "hate speech".

This a disturbing and inflammatory way to classify posts. People can say stupid and ignorant things without "hate". What exactly is "hate speech"? What does MNHQ think it means?

"Hate speech" is not a crime but there is something called "hate speech where the police can be involved.

What happens if someone demands to know how many complaints there are about "hate speech" on MumsNet? There they are, all nicely classified.

How is this a good idea? How is it safe for anyone to post if other people can just click a button to claim their post is "hate speech"?

There are many times when I’ve reported something where a “hate speech” button would have saved time. Normally late at night when a flagrant troll has just come on and decided to spew racist or misogynistic abuse on thread after thread.

People will report what they want to report.

I think there should be a number of times a poster can report a post before they're banned.

I don't think I've ever reported anybody unless they just reported me, ha ha!
But on the occasion my post was reported I was so frustrated that mumsnet had just deleted it on autopilot. There was nothing wrong with what I'd said. The person who reported me simply didn't agree and didn't like the truth set out clearly.

I used it once when reporting a racist who had predictably turned up on one of those 'controversial opinions' threads within five minutes of it starting

I agree, ''hate speech'' is very vague.

The sentence ''Her Penis'' as well as ''The sentence 'Her penis' makes no sense'' could both be reported for hate speech.

Posts have always been able to be reported OP, why is that unsafe?

Im sure you understand really it’s meant for racist, homophobic, sexist posts etc. Is it really upsetting to you that those are reported and deleted?

If you want to feel safe posting those kind of comments perhaps find another forum that will welcome your views.

I think you're over-reacting.

I assume (hope) it's used as a way to triage reports, and just because something is reported doesn't mean that MN consider it deletable.

Are you worried that some of your posts will one day be flagged as hate speech?

People can report for any reason they like. It's still up to MN staff to decide whether or not to do anything about it.

What happens if somebody demands to know how many complaints there are about "hate speech"? Not much. MN is a private company and not subject to freedom of information rules.

Sure, people can report what they like. I report posts I think are inflammatory or prejudiced, sometimes it's accepted, sometimes not. But now there's a very explicit trail; if you report a post for "Hate Speech", the post gets deleted or not, and if it gets deleted it was deleted for "Hate Speech". Not just for "breaking guidelines" any more. And "hate speech" is a quasi legal term now.

This is not just about easily reporting trolls. Women on Feminism and Women's Rights board regularly get reported to MNHQ by trans rights activists. A "hate speech" button is a weapon in their hands. And it's a weapon that could be turned against individual MumsNet users and against MumsNet itself.

MNHQ could be asked to answer questions about how many Hate Speech complaints there are, how many posts get complained about for Hate Speech, how many upheld complaints there are..... even who they are. Do we really want our own postings tidily classified by MumsNet readers and noted by MumsNet as "potential hate speech"?

TRA hacks Mumsnet.

Looks for hate speech report.

Finds OPs comments.

OP is now in a freezer somewhere 😂

Sorry OP but I think you're worrying about nothing.

It's just a shortcut, it really not a big deal.

I think it's a good thing. Other sites have a choice to report a hate speech, and I don't think people are complaining.
As for report abuse, it's up to HQ to determine the report was true or not. If they just believe the report abuse and delete everything, they look silly.

I agree with you @AmaryllisNightAndDay if mn ever had to provide stats on how many of the posts are ''hate speech'' it could make things hard for them, and create a neat narrative that the commonly held opinion that sex is biological is hate speech and the stats back it up (although, it'd be a nonsense, as any fool can click on a button that says ''hate speech''. It's all so meaningless but I agree with you it seems to be handing over weapons.

What do you think of having an opposite to the ''hate speech'' button. Like a ''truth my friend!!'' button.

To counter the narrative that the posts are hateful. End of.

Or would us loving the hate speech only damage us more?

But the options aren’t just “breaks talk guidelines” and “hate speech” are they? They’re broken down into a couple of categories, hate speech being just one of what 4? How would you reword it then OP?

I’m not too worried, as I know I don’t post anything that constitutes hate speech personally.

Are you worried that some of your posts will one day be flagged as hate speech?

Well, that wasn't my first thought. But a couple of years ago I had a post deleted (not related to FWR) for crossing a line in a way that I didn't intend. I asked MNHQ what I'd said wrong, they explained, job done. It was a small thing at the time but out of the options offered today someone might have clicked that button.

I understand it might make life easier for MNHQ in the short term but FWR is already tricky for MNHQ, why make it harder?

And "Hate Speech" is such a horrible and lazy term in itself, it's not one I would ever use. I can report trolls as trolls with the button, and I can also also label disablism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism etc for what they are - in words.

How would you reword it then OP?

You are right, I can't think of a better term offhand. Maybe we could live without a "Hate Speech" button? When I wanted to report a disablist post (and discovered the "Hate Speech" button ) I clicked on the "Other" button and then said it was disablist.

@KindOfInvisible You have a wilder imagination than I do!

But I have lived around tech and around bureaucracy for long enough to know that if data can easily be gathered the chances are it will be gathered, and people will do things with it which might not be what you expect.

I’m not too worried, as I know I don’t post anything that constitutes hate speech personally.

It might not "consititute" hate speech, but you do realise that perfectly reasonable opinions get flagged as such sometimes?

PinkFrogss
I’m not too worried, as I know I don’t post anything that constitutes hate speech personally.

I would have thought the same until recently, but now posting biological reality is deemed 'hate speech' by some.

It's just a shortcut, it really not a big deal.

Yes it is intended to just be a short cut, and it shouldn't be a big deal. I am flagging up that it could become a big deal. MumsNet is unusual in hosting FWR, which puts in a more vulnerable position than other organisations that have a "Hate Speech" button.

I know I don’t post anything that constitutes hate speech personally.

Do you never talk about any sensitive topics and see people pick up on seemingly harmless statements? You do understand it wont be your decision about what is hate speech and what isn't? It's another poster who will flag it up and click the button. On MNHQ rule breaks can be minor, or not clear cut, or accidental, and MNHQ will still delete the post -- and so they should. But if you are talking about a sensitive topic like disability or FWR then you're more likely to have someone see what you said in good faith is "hate speech".

You really are overreacting. Yes, there's a chance someone report your post as a hate speech. But like I said, if HQ deletes it without thinking, then they are the one that look silly. And you can always have convo with HQ via email etc, to state your reasoning. Maybe sometimes it won't go well.
But then, helping those who are the recieving end of the abuse is way more helpful imo. So if the comment was flagged up as hate speech, it will be distinguished from others, which gives Hq to pay more attention? What is wrong with that, I can't see.

If someone reports my post as hate speech or something else, and it doesn’t actually break the talk guidelines but MNHQ delete it anyway, then I don’t care whether it’s been reported as hate speech or what.

Unless this changes the talk guidelines and what MNHQ are deleting then I can’t get worked up about it. I’ve seen so many racist, homophobic, and misogynistic posts on this site that unfortunately I can see why they’ve added it.

Id be interested to know if/how MNHQ prioritise looking at reports though, and if this impacts that.

Hi @AmaryllisNightAndDay thanks to you and everyone else for your comments. There's mixed opinion here but we'll read and consider all your points.

We should point out that the decision to delete a post and the reasons for deletion lies with MNHQ - the shortcut buttons are there to help the person reporting but it does massively help us if people also add a note as to why they want us to take a look.

If someone reports my post as hate speech or something else, and it doesn’t actually break the talk guidelines but MNHQ delete it anyway, then I don’t care whether it’s been reported as hate speech or what.

This isn't a you issue. You may not care. It is about the bigger picture.

How it could affect you, if someone takes against you and decides to find out who you are [has happened plently of times] and they report several of your posts then you have a record of hate speech. If this same someone finds out who you are they can use this record against you and you may find yourself in real life with a non crime hate incident on your record. Which you don't know about, and will only find out about when you apply for the job of your dreams and then gets pulled once your enhanced DBS comes back. And you have no right of reply.

How it could affect MN - various activist groups have already said they are coming for female forums and this one is top of the list. If it gets to court and Mumsnet is up against them, the number of hate speech reports will be disclosed in the bundle. It is in the interests of those that want to shut this forum down to ramp up the reporting, in order to get these numbers up. And these may well be used by a judge to decide on whether Mumsnet can even exist.

It is a right royal self own if you ask me. Why walk into a lions den knowing the lion is right there, hungry and with jaws wide open?

Perhaps 'discriminatory post' would be an alternative option?

I agree with you op.

Easy enough to imagine the following scenario:

TRAs target mumsnet by creating a load of accounts and reporting tons of comments on FWR as hate speech (comments like, men convicted as rapists shouldn't be allowed to identify as women and get moved to women's prisons). Some get deleted by MNHQ, most probably dont.
An FOI request is then made to MNHQ by TRAs asking how many posts are reported as hate speech, and how many are deleted. Boom, evidence that mumsnet is full of hateful comments AND Mumsnet HQ doesn't delete comments its own users report as hateful.

It's an own goal to create this category.