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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

The "Hate Speech" button - really?

83 replies

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/09/2022 11:13

I just reported a post to MNHQ and one of the buttons is "hate speech".

This a disturbing and inflammatory way to classify posts. People can say stupid and ignorant things without "hate". What exactly is "hate speech"? What does MNHQ think it means?

"Hate speech" is not a crime but there is something called "hate speech where the police can be involved.

What happens if someone demands to know how many complaints there are about "hate speech" on MumsNet? There they are, all nicely classified.

How is this a good idea? How is it safe for anyone to post if other people can just click a button to claim their post is "hate speech"?

OP posts:
Yarnosaur · 10/09/2022 13:36

FOIs don't apply to private companies!

AlisonDonut · 10/09/2022 13:40

Yarnosaur · 10/09/2022 13:36

FOIs don't apply to private companies!

No but if you take down a forum for 'hate speech' and it gets to court then the figures on 'hate speech' will be requested and have to be reported. Making it easy for those people to manufacture 'hate speech' for this purpose is not the brightest move.

PinkFrogss · 10/09/2022 13:44

Alternatively, it could show MNHQ have a robust method of reporting and handling such posts, rather than letting it run rampid on the boards.

I never said this was only about me, but people are allowed to give their own views. Again, I’m not too worried about my posts somehow appearing on a DBS check, but of course different people worry about different things.

Howardsbend · 10/09/2022 13:47

This should only bother someone who wants to write posts that should clearly be deleted.

Sparklingbrook · 10/09/2022 13:51

Before they had buttons you had to write what the problem was you could just type 'hate speech' so i don't know what the problem is just because there's now a button. And MNHQ will decide if it is or isn't either way.

Yarnosaur · 10/09/2022 13:55

Alternatively, it could show MNHQ have a robust method of reporting and handling such posts, rather than letting it run rampid on the boards.

Exactly. Any data collected around this would almost certainly bolster MN's position.

Posters who are concerned with somehow being 'outed' as someone who's had posts unfairly reported or deleted for 'hate speech' (which I know is a broad and frequently misused concept) probably should make sure they have decent internet security. Ultimately it doesn't matter how MN categorise reports or deletions, it's about the content.

AlisonDonut · 10/09/2022 14:04

Yarnosaur · 10/09/2022 13:55

Alternatively, it could show MNHQ have a robust method of reporting and handling such posts, rather than letting it run rampid on the boards.

Exactly. Any data collected around this would almost certainly bolster MN's position.

Posters who are concerned with somehow being 'outed' as someone who's had posts unfairly reported or deleted for 'hate speech' (which I know is a broad and frequently misused concept) probably should make sure they have decent internet security. Ultimately it doesn't matter how MN categorise reports or deletions, it's about the content.

Oh to be so naive.

A friend of mine had a hotel review deleted from Google for 'hate speech' last week. So not liking a scalding hot hotel room and bed bugs is now 'hate speech'.

It is a known method of weaponising what we used to call an 'opinion'.

Anything anyone says can be 'hate speech' if you want it to be.

DysonSphere · 10/09/2022 14:05

Thanks for flagging this up OP.

I'm sorry, but I have no faith in MN mods (especially at night) always making careful, balanced decisions about what constitutes a post being removed/not being removed let alone what constitutes 'hate speech' and what doesn't.

Mods often get it right, but I've also seen plenty of examples of heavy handedness where even the OP of the deleted post/thread is left wondering why they have been deleted, indeed where others are left non-plussed as to why an entire thread is pulled for 'not in the spirit' where debate seems robust but otherwise fine, and again, I've seen threads turn quite nasty and the offending posts are let remain all night.

This will make me avoid posting unwelcome and unpopular opinions or non-pc opinions. I have been hounded before by a somewhat unhinged poster who started posting crazy messages in my inbox, calling me derogatory names for an opinion she didn't like. I didn't report her. But she later targeted someone else before being, I assume, suspended from the site. A 'Hate speech' button is a gift for someone like that, as well as TRAs. How could we feel safe giving controversial opinions on FWR in future?

Frankly it's an own goal MN. You've been targeted by groups before. Boon time for them. I'll be sticking to vanilla posts from here onwards.

AlisonDonut · 10/09/2022 14:08

MN knows damn well that the activists are out to take it down. Why give them a helping hand?

It is fucking bizarre.

Farmageddon · 10/09/2022 14:09

Howardsbend · 10/09/2022 13:47

This should only bother someone who wants to write posts that should clearly be deleted.

Again I will point out that to some people, biological reality is considered hate speech, and they have targeted benign posts before.

So this idea that only genuinely hateful things will be targeted is naive at best.

MolkosTeenageAngst · 10/09/2022 14:15

Surely unless the post actually contains something that is hate speech it doesn’t really matter how it is reported. Is there any evidence that mumsnet are keeping a record of why a thread was deleted based solely on the button pressed by the person who reported it? Unless that is the case then even if a non-hate speech but still rule-breaking post is reported as hate speech and consequently removed it doesn’t really matter, just because it is reported by a random user as something doesn’t mean mumsnet HQ will see it like that. I have reported threads in the past where none of the tickbox options really effectively covered my report reason but I just ticked any one and then clarified in the comment box. The post will be moderated by a real person against the site rules so the box ticked by the reporter isn’t necessarilly going to always align with the reason for deletion, and obviously hate speech is a real thing so it’s not unreasonable to offer it as an option just because some might use it mistakenly?

MissyB1 · 10/09/2022 14:18

I often see extremely derogatory comments and insults directed at people who have faith. Will that count as “hate speech” ? Nope not if the comments were about Christianity, you can bet your life on that!
I don’t have an issue with a hate speech report as such, but I would like to see a definition of what will count as hate speech.

Original poster
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/09/2022 14:20

Hi @YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet Thank you for reading and listening.

To me "hate speech" is a very serious accusation and one I wouldn't want against my name.

Here's are some scenarios to consider. Not saying all of these have happened:

Parent of child with recently diagnosed ASC is grieving and angry and upset, and their DC's behaviour is awful, has a bit of a rant about kids with ASCs. Other parents get cross and report, and some are angry enough to press the "hate speech" button - well what other button would they press?

Parent of child with ASC is chatting among other parents of similar kids, makes a borderline remark , the sort that would just get a sympathetic laugh in that group in real life. But this is the internet, many other people are reading, someone with an ASC takes offense and reports, and presses the "hate speech" button - well what other button would they press?

Parent of child who's being bullied by a child with an ASC is angry and upset and has a bit of a rant about kids with ASCs. Other parents report. What other button would they press?

To me these all examples are offensive to a vulnerable group, maybe deeply offensive, and yes they should all be deleted; but labelling them "hate speech" is stronger than just deletion. It's accusing people of motives that they don't necessarily have.

And I have a question: if a post is deleted as a result of such a complaint, what does the deletion message say? I hope it does not say "this post is deleted because it's hate speech"?

OP posts:
Yarnosaur · 10/09/2022 14:21

AlisonDonut · 10/09/2022 14:04

Oh to be so naive.

A friend of mine had a hotel review deleted from Google for 'hate speech' last week. So not liking a scalding hot hotel room and bed bugs is now 'hate speech'.

It is a known method of weaponising what we used to call an 'opinion'.

Anything anyone says can be 'hate speech' if you want it to be.

Show quote history

Of course people use 'hate speech' to label ridiculous things, but I'm not sure why you (royal you) wouldn't just laugh it off.

The 'hate speech' report option is useful for flagging ableist, misogynist and racist posts if it means they get prioritised in the reporting system (IMHO they should be top priority).

If people are using it spuriously then that's a separate issue, and I'm sure the mods have ways to deal with that, but that's an issue with the reporters not those being reported.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 10/09/2022 14:24

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 10/09/2022 13:12

Hi @AmaryllisNightAndDay thanks to you and everyone else for your comments. There's mixed opinion here but we'll read and consider all your points.

We should point out that the decision to delete a post and the reasons for deletion lies with MNHQ - the shortcut buttons are there to help the person reporting but it does massively help us if people also add a note as to why they want us to take a look.

I'd like to know what definition of 'hate speech' you are working with. I've seen far too much hyperbole over what activists term 'hate speech' and it would be helpful to know how MN define this.

PAFMO · 10/09/2022 14:25

It's been there for ages.
I've used it for racism

porridgecake · 10/09/2022 14:30

I think that if you report a post you should be able to articulate and justify your reasons, not just pick a predefined classification. Especially one that is so open to misinterpretation and misuse. I don't think this has been thought through at all.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 10/09/2022 14:30

How could we feel safe giving controversial opinions on FWR in future?

Ordinary views about knowing what a woman is and that humans can't change sex are not controversial though.
Neither is wanting to keep single sex spaces or discussing female legal protections.

The majority of the population have the same view.
A perfectly ordinary viewpoint that some people think is 'hate speech' because they don't like hearing it.

I really do wonder why MN would shoot themselves in the foot like this.

Freedomfighters · 10/09/2022 14:30

I agree with you op.

roarfeckingroarr · 10/09/2022 14:41

It'll be used by TRAs to bash MN. Own goal.

AlisonDonut · 10/09/2022 14:59

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/09/2022 14:20

Hi @YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet Thank you for reading and listening.

To me "hate speech" is a very serious accusation and one I wouldn't want against my name.

Here's are some scenarios to consider. Not saying all of these have happened:

Parent of child with recently diagnosed ASC is grieving and angry and upset, and their DC's behaviour is awful, has a bit of a rant about kids with ASCs. Other parents get cross and report, and some are angry enough to press the "hate speech" button - well what other button would they press?

Parent of child with ASC is chatting among other parents of similar kids, makes a borderline remark , the sort that would just get a sympathetic laugh in that group in real life. But this is the internet, many other people are reading, someone with an ASC takes offense and reports, and presses the "hate speech" button - well what other button would they press?

Parent of child who's being bullied by a child with an ASC is angry and upset and has a bit of a rant about kids with ASCs. Other parents report. What other button would they press?

To me these all examples are offensive to a vulnerable group, maybe deeply offensive, and yes they should all be deleted; but labelling them "hate speech" is stronger than just deletion. It's accusing people of motives that they don't necessarily have.

And I have a question: if a post is deleted as a result of such a complaint, what does the deletion message say? I hope it does not say "this post is deleted because it's hate speech"?

Yes it already does.

Appear as hate speech that is.

Surtsey · 10/09/2022 15:11

@AmaryllisNightAndDay What would you suggest as an alternative?

I've always viewed it as a catch-all option for racism, religious hatred, unpleasant remarks about disability, or anything else which is offensive to the person reporting the post.

Whatever MNHQ called it, there still wouldn't be anything stopping malicious or vexatious reporting, would there? People would still do it to cause trouble if they wanted to.

DysonSphere · 10/09/2022 15:23

MissyB1 · 10/09/2022 14:18

I often see extremely derogatory comments and insults directed at people who have faith. Will that count as “hate speech” ? Nope not if the comments were about Christianity, you can bet your life on that!
I don’t have an issue with a hate speech report as such, but I would like to see a definition of what will count as hate speech.

You can bet your life that won't count as HS @MissyB1 don't be silly now.

AlisonDonut · 10/09/2022 15:32

Surtsey · 10/09/2022 15:11

@AmaryllisNightAndDay What would you suggest as an alternative?

I've always viewed it as a catch-all option for racism, religious hatred, unpleasant remarks about disability, or anything else which is offensive to the person reporting the post.

Whatever MNHQ called it, there still wouldn't be anything stopping malicious or vexatious reporting, would there? People would still do it to cause trouble if they wanted to.

Yes but there is a UK law that means non crime hate incidents can be put on your criminal file, without your knowledge, without any evidence and without any right of reply.

That's why it is important not to record this as it can be weaponised. Mumsnet and the reporters do not have the right to say you have committed hate speech. It's bad enough that the police do.

FourTeaFallOut · 10/09/2022 15:43

Are we going to have other boxes that frame the contents of a post in quasi legal terms? Con Artist would be a good one.