sorry if this has been mentioned but..

[WideWebWitch]

Did Justine not say somewhere that 'pinned' or sticky threads would be reserved for site related stuff only? Just wondering since Expat's thread is pinned and that seems to me to be a charitable appeal rather than site stuff. And I guess I'm wondering if we're going down that road of making charitable/philanthropic thread 'sticky' (not that it's my site, mumsnet can do whatever they want, of course) then erm, who decides who is deserving of being pinned and who is not?

Sorry if this is a silly question. I've only skimmed the thread iq so I may be talkign bollocks do tell me fk off if so! But I only just came on tonight and it was at the top so I thought I'd ask

(I hope no-one incl EPIS takes offence at this, I am just interested in the answer, it's not that I'm unsympathetic, I absolutely am not)

Lapin is a lovely, kind thoughtful lady who i have never have thought of as rude or aggressive. she was raising the point that maybe at this delicate time EPIS would be rater hurt coming on to see this, even if that was not what you were intended. maybe an email to MNHQ would have been a bit more sensitive.

just because LL doesn't agree with you doesn't mean she is being rude or agressive!

and just because www has a different view to some of you doesn't mean she is insensitive or unsympathetic to expat

i think it is very reasonable to debate this point. unfortunately we haven't had much reasoned debate on this thread.

can people really not see that ll's posts of 21:11 & 21:16 were beyond the bounds of politeness? yes i do think rudeness is not confined to swearing and threatening behaviour [shudders at the thought of how some people must live].

however, the point is that really we should debate this, imho, and be able to ask the question without being jumped on.

It is reasonable to debate the topic.

It is untimely to do so now.

[shudder at the thought of how unfeeling some people are]

every so often i am reminded that mumsnet has changed

i use the classic version so iut doesn't have stickies or any other fangled stuff or ignored threads etc etc

seems nice and non controversial that way

if i log at college slap wrists verboten the controller comes on and says log off this filthy website immediately

but before that happens i always think oh god what is this at the to me still new stylee mumsnet

but i think it is unfeeling to have stickies for some people and not for others. desperately, cruelly, miserably unfeeling.

"beyond the bounds of politeness"? It is impolite to ask someone if they consider their right to voice an opinion more important than someone else's emotional state? Fine, call me rude.

As a matter of fact, I think WWW has a very interesting point, and it brings up some issues with regard to the "ownership" of the forums, not in financial terms per se. My posts were at no point motivated by disagreeing with her point, I had/have an issue with her timing.

At NO point has WWW been called a bitch by anyone, Fio, you seem to have just added that in to fuel the fire. "Insensitive" might be the strongest accusation levelled, as far as I can see.

With regard to aggression, and rudeness -

"By Wickedwaterwitch on Tue 11-Dec-07 19:28:18
Well I completely disagree Littlelapin, I refuse not to post a view because of some notion of I don't know, what? Tiptoeing around Epis?"

"By TenLordsaLapin on Tue 11-Dec-07 21:11:11
So despite the fact that it could have caused expat some distress - it doesn't seem to have, thankfully - a fact that you implicitly acknowledge the last line of your OP, you didn't feel that you could wait, what, a week to post this? Your opinion is THAT important? "

Could someone please explain to me why MY post is aggressive and rude, and WWW's is not?

Actually, you know what, don't. Let's let this thread disappear, so expat won't see it. And then perhaps in a few days, we could all have a sensible and intelligent discussion about this interesting issue.

WWW, I still maintain that your timing was off, and it saddens me that you can't see why that is, but if my posts in any way implied you were being a bitch, that was unintended. and I apologise. And now I'm off.

yes it is bossykate but i wanted a thread of mine to be a sticky and www was rude about that.

i dont think they're should be a debate as we do not decide. mn towers do.

i think that there are becoming too many personal attacks here.

i still think timing is off to discuss a thread whether we are debating it being a sticky or not i am sure expat wouln't like to see this thread as it is clearly aimed at thread about her

BK, I don't disagree with you at all about that. It's a tough decision for MNHQ to make - either ignore things they really want to sticky in case someone gets missed, or don't sticky anything but site stuff as a blanket rule, but then you risk not being able to sticky things like Mile For Maude.

But I think it shouldn't be discussed NOW, for all the reasons LL's just outlined.

So this is my last post on this untimely thread, to save it being bumped any more.

I'm with www and bk - and I think it's completely reasonable to have the debate as the issue comes up. It's not about expat - it's about the next person who has a huge problem like this and doesn't get stickies because they aren't so well known/liked and so feels that nobody cares about them. Stickies for individuals threads are like a Mumsnet sanctioned popularity contest.

gosh laplin you wrote that quick

i did a mental "holy shit www - thats brave" but no one could have written it more diplomatically i think. i Know that WWW is a v. nice, educated, intelligent poster and we do gather our information about posters via what they write to form an opinion. she certainly isn't having a go at epis, i cant find anyone who would.

the question of which deserving person should be picked was asked. its a hard one. but am not sure of the ruckus here? I dont think Lapin was harsher than anyone else particularly and some posters think that this is an untimely debate which IMO is a fair comment - but one which people can disagree with without hair pulling.

come on ladies grow up ffs.

santasmissy, it was me that was rude about that not WWW

oh yes so it was

apology to www

i think that just high lights that if anyone had a sticky people on here would always be for/against

A similar thing happened a few years ago when a very much loved mumsnetter was going through a terrible time. Many people got together and made a financial contribution to help her get through it, and it was suggested that we set up a permanent Mumsnet fund so that in future other people could be helped in a similar way - but that requires somebody to make judgement calls, and if we can't even agree on whether it's OK to eat grapes how are we all going to agree on who is or is not deserving? Just after the first incident another poster pretended to have similar issues and got incredibly upset when she wasn't treated with the same level of kindness (but tbh she was just a bit strange all round)
Mumsnet has always been very good at self policing. Interference from HQ (however well meaning) changes that. Expat's thread was always going to be in active conversations because people were keeping it bumped - if something is important enough it will be kept current without the intervention or judgement of HQ

I remember that Prufrock
I agree with custy and with both your last two posts
I think this is an issue that should be up for discussion

I've just read the updates on this thread and I still think my question in the OP was worth asking - I haven't seen a compelling argument for not asking since I last posted here. I've just seen 'now is not the time' which seems to me just a way of shutting down debate. When would be the time? When a less prolific poster has a personal tragedy and there are posts asking what the criteria are for getting it pinned?

This question has never arisen before because stickies didn't exist before but I don't think I was the only one pondering the wider question brought about by the recent pinning of EPIS's sad thread. This thread is emphatically not about EPIS specifically though, it's about the principle of stickies in general.

I find the idea of other posters being offended on Expat's behalf a bit, what? Odd I suppose. Has she said she's offended at my asking the question? I don't think she has and if she reads this I would hope and expect that she would see that it's a question about the principle of stickies, it's absolutely not about her specific situation. We all sympathise greatly with that, of course we do. Many posters on this thread have had tragic and awful events in their lives too and we couldn't be anything other than sorry for what EPIS has gone through. But making an assumption that Expat's feelings might be hurt by this (when it's resolutely not about her in particular, it's a question about the wider principle) seems, not exactly insulting, but, well, it is making a large ish assumption on her behalf isn't it? Although I doubt mumsnet policy on stickies is the uppermost in her mind right now.

Anyway, that was the intention of this thread though, to find out about mn policy on stickies. I feel I've got to know Expat fairly well from here over the years and I hope she knows I wouldn't want to cause her any more sadness. That doesn't stop me thinking it's ok to post this question in site stuff. Had I done it ON the thread iq then I would have deserved a telling off, quite rightly.

Also I did say the site belongs to mumsnet and of course they can do whatever they like, I know that, but Justine acknowledged that they need to think about it a bit. Fair enough.

WWW I have no interest in shutting down debate. As I said in my post below, I think you have a very interesting point, worthy of debate and also extending into wider issues.

I just felt that since Expat was actually undergoing her surgery at the time, that perhaps you could have waited three days, a week perhaps, to start the discussion. I was concerned that Expat, at a sensitive and probably hormonal time, would be upset by the thread, no matter how delicately phrased. The fact that you even included "I hope no-one incl EPIS takes offence at this" in your OP does tend to suggest to me that you can't be astounded by my reaction, and that of some other posters.

I really don't see why it should be odd that we should be offended on someone else's behalf - I would have said concerned, rather than offended anyway.

But as I said, it really IS an interesting debate. Would you mind if I suggested that we start over, maybe you could start a new thread debating stickies and then we can all discuss it properly without all this other stuff getting in the way.

LL, I didn't know Expat was undergoing her surgery - your emphasis - because I wasn't around much, I'm only here at weekends and some evenings atm and had no idea really what the specifics of her sad situation were. But I don't think it's that relevant since this ISN'T ABOUT EXPAT. I am typing that in capitals for absolute clarity. This is about the principle.

And yes, I typed "I hope no-one, including Expat takes offence at this" because

a) recently on mumsnet, it seems to me, you can post

"hey I just discovered washing up is easier with Fairy washing up liquid"

and a dozen people will say "oh I'm offended at the very suggestion, some people can't AFFORD Fairy washing up liquid. How very dare you?" Or words to that effect. I'm exaggerating for effect, of course, but you get the gist. So no, I'm not astounded and no, I suppose I'm not even particularly surprised but I was attempting to pre empt that

and b) because I was talking about the principle, not the particular instance I wanted to make it clear that I was not trying to cause offence. I therefore hoped no-one would take offence. And it seems that people have. And if EPIS is one of them then I will apologise to her, specifically and publically. Absolutely. But on the evidence we have so far (and as I said, she's probably got other things on her mind) she is not offended - a load of other people are on her behalf. Or 'concerned' as you would prefer it described.

so in answer to your asking "Would you mind if I suggested that we start over, maybe you could start a new thread debating stickies and then we can all discuss it properly without all this other stuff getting in the way." Yes, I do mind. And no, I don't really want to say the same stuff all over again on another thread. But if you think my posts are inappropriate and want to report them, please, do go ahead.

And actually, when would it have been ok to ask this question? 24 hours? A day? A week? 2 weeks? Never? And who decides when we're 'allowed' to talk about something?

Wow, you really are taking offence at this, aren't you. How ironic.

All I was suggesting that you wait one or two days. If you had actually read the sticky, you would have seen what was going on. I think you are being disingenuous saying you hoped no-one would take offence.

No-one is saying you're not allowed to post, please don't be so dramatic. You can of course post whatever and whenever you like. And I have no intention of reporting you, I'm not that petty. You haven't said anything against the MN philosophy as far as I can see. Just because I disagree with your timing doesn't mean I am going to go running to Justine et al (who would tell me to bog off anyway!)

I thought my suggestion of starting afresh would suit everyone, but if you are so determined to get your own way that you can't force yourself to repost the 4 or 5 sentences of your OP, then sadly I don't think I will be able to participate in the debate, unless someone else sees fit to start another thread - as is, of course, their right as a MN poster.

I've dramatically failed in my attempts not to bump this, but now I really will go.

No, LL, I'm not taking offence, I'm disagreeing with you. There's quite a difference. And I have explained why I disagree.

I am not being disingenuous. And again, I have explained why.

And your language is pretty emotional, and I quote:

"please don't be so dramatic." I'm not - I've just tried to explain my position and pov.

"if you are so determined to get your own way"

I'm not, it's nothing to do with 'my own way' I just disagree with you and I'm not alone in doing so. If you want to bow out that's up to you.

So there's no irony at all afaics.