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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Update on our moderation of trans rights issues

65 replies

JustineMumsnet · 18/06/2019 10:23

Hi all,

It’s been roughly a year since we published our statement on moderation with regard to trans rights. Back then we felt that we needed to put in place some parameters to facilitate debate on the important issue of trans rights. We think this approach has improved things over the past months, but it remains a thorny one to moderate.

There have been several threads voicing concern about our approach and it’s probably worth addressing them systematically.

We’ve obviously noted some concerns about posts that are being reported from Twitter and by email (as opposed to reporting direct from our Talk boards). We don’t actually get a significant amount of reports from offsite (under 0.1% over the last 3 months) and the huge majority of concerns are directly reported posts from Mumsnet members. But whatever the origin, when we receive a report on a post, our standard approach is to assess the context, and then moderate it against the guidelines.

Many of you have posted to say you disagree with our language guidelines, particularly concerning the use of TIM in preference to transwoman. Our view is that this is an inflammatory term which trans people find offensive and therefore not conducive to creating and inclusive space for debate.

Another thing we’ve noticed when applying the guidelines is that they often support the case for keeping a post on the boards -- for example, we often say, ‘Thanks for the report, we’ve taken a look and the post doesn’t break our Talk guidelines’. And if we do receive a number of reports that result in no action, then we politely draw the reporter’s attention to our rule about vexatious reporting.

Concerns have been raised about our awareness of coercive control. We know that people are worried about this and our team have had training in recognising coercive control. In general, we always take context into account when taking any action.

Several folk have wondered why our three strikes system is used with regards to the FWR board. We’ve found it to be a useful moderation tool and in fact we now use the approach across all our forums. We don’t want to summarily ban people (apart from trolls) and we will always give members a chance to discuss our moderation decisions. It’s a useful indication of where you are with regard to the guidelines - if we’ve been in touch with you a couple of times, then users get a clear idea of where we are drawing the line.

One thing that might be useful to know is that it’s often generalisations that in our view create a hostile atmosphere likely to prevent civil debate that result in posts being taken down.

We’ve also picked up that some Mumsnet users feel it can be difficult for them to contribute to discussions around this topic. Our aim in hosting this debate (which most other media, sites and platforms have elected not to do) is to promote freedom of speech, which means allowing all perspectives to be heard. That means maintaining an environment that isn’t offputting to those with opinions outside the consensus. Labelling folks as ‘handmaidens’ or trolls purely because they have a different point of view isn’t conducive to this and if we see it we will step in and take action. We’re not asking everyone to agree - that would clearly be ridiculous - but we think it’s crucial that people with a variety of perspectives feel able to post.

In short we are trying our very hardest to maintain this important space for discussion, despite considerable and fairly relentless pressure and criticism and we firmly believe that those abiding by the spirit of constructive and civilised debate won’t be deleted or banned.

It’s a challenging issue to moderate and we apologise for occasional inconsistencies which are somewhat inevitable but we’ll continue to do our best to stick to our moderation principles and to make fair decisions.

Thanks as ever for your input

OP posts:
calpop · 18/06/2019 10:27

Are CIS and TERF banned as well for the same reason as TIM? I hope so and then everyone can stop using them as they are all equally offensive to significant group of people.

Samcro · 18/06/2019 10:36

I was just going to ask about cis
its an incredibly offensive term IMO.I know I am not alone in thinking that.

happydappy2 · 18/06/2019 10:42

Can we use Male born transwoman?

IAmNoAngel · 18/06/2019 10:43

I'd just like to agree with the above posters, while terf is obviously designed to give offence, I personally find cis even worse, and am shocked that they are left as ok, whilst tim (a descriptive term) is banned.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/06/2019 10:45

That's already covered in the guidelines:

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions.

I don't think any term is banned, we can use them in discussion (eg discussing why 'cis' is objectionable) but if a post refers in a derogatory way to 'terfs' or calls you cis etc, if you report there's a high chance the post will be deleted and persistent abusers of these terms definitely fall foul of the 3 strikes rule.

That's my understanding, it's what I've observed. But you do need to hit report if you see stuff that breaks guidelines. It's easy.

BretonDinosaur · 18/06/2019 10:47

Can you give some clarity on the three strikes policy please? Certainly some members speak of being given suspensions or bans when they have no strikes - how is this happening?

It was my understanding when the 3 strikes system was introduced that when a strike was given the user would be notified of it, and thus would know how close to the wind they had been sailing (and modify their behaviour/posting). When bans or suspensions are given and deletions cited that the user wasn't notified of this seems more than a little unfair.

calpop · 18/06/2019 10:48

but arent the guidelines now saying tim is an instant delete without needing to have been reported, whereas terf or cis will only go if the offendees report. Isn't that saying that tim is somehow worse? I think they are all equally offensive, albeit to different groups of people, and should be treated exactly the same.

JanesKettle · 18/06/2019 10:49

As mum to 2 trans IDing kids, I don't particularly welcome this. I think it's infantilising trans people to think that women to have to censor their (accurate, sex-based) language.

Obviously that is a view that runs counter to many. But it's a genuine view, nonetheless.

crosspelican · 18/06/2019 10:53

"Male born transwoman" is a tautology. A transwoman is by definition male born, so to say "Male born transwoman" is to be deliberately provocative/rude, I should have thought.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/06/2019 10:55

but arent the guidelines now saying tim is an instant delete without needing to have been reported, whereas terf or cis will only go if the offendees report.

https://www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

Not that I can see. Confused AFAIK MN doesn't do any automatic content filtering, does it?

NoBaggyPants · 18/06/2019 10:56

Thanks for the update Justine. The guidelines allow meaningful discussion whilst being respectful to all parties.

calpop · 18/06/2019 10:59

I agree with that trans woman or transwoman is sufficient (I can't get worked up either way about the space and can't remember which one is supposed to be wrong! but I'm sure there are activists out there who will correct us). However, I do still see and hear a lot of confusion out in the RL about which direction transmen and transwomen are going/coming from so perhaps that's the reasoning. Probably not an issue on the FWR boards where posters and reporters are very educated about the 'trans debate' - might not help the complaints from elsewhere on MN about FWR being unfriendly and inaccessible though?

MrsSpenserGregson · 18/06/2019 11:04

Can we discuss or refer to AGP? @JustineMumsnet I had a post deleted yesterday which (to be fair) was making generalisations about AGP, but that was because AGP presents in a certain way and there actually aren't really any nuances involved in this condition .... therefore the generalisations are also specifics iykwim?

DonPablo · 18/06/2019 11:08

We don’t actually get a significant amount of reports from offsite (under 0.1% over the last 3 months) and the huge majority of concerns are directly reported posts from Mumsnet members. is this a site wide stat and is the percentage the same for off board reports about FWR posts?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 18/06/2019 11:12

I think it's very important to be able to talk about autogynephilia.

It's hard to name a societal trend and discuss its implications without being able to actually talk about it

RuffleCrow · 18/06/2019 11:18

You make a great show of being even handed, but you know there can be no equality whilst women are prevented from speaking about scientific facts and these facts are held to be 'insulting'.

Facts are not insulting. They are not in any sense an equivalent to the abbohrent assumption of 1950s sex stereotypes bound up in labels like 'cis'. They are not equivalent to the false attribution of agency in the word 'terf' which wrongly holds women accoubtable for the sexual dimorphism intrinstic to the human race. You're failing women, MN. Sad

LangCleg · 18/06/2019 11:19

We don’t actually get a significant amount of reports from offsite (under 0.1% over the last 3 months) and the huge majority of concerns are directly reported posts from Mumsnet members.

But how many reports do you get from members who post rarely?

But how many reports do you get from members who aren't actively contributing to threads (ie are monitoring them)?

Do you have accounts that have been created mostly for reporting purposes?

MrsSpenserGregson · 18/06/2019 11:20

applauds @RuffleCrow

LangCleg · 18/06/2019 11:20

our statement on moderation with regard to trans rights

Is there perhaps a need for you to consider and create a statement on moderation with regard to women's rights?

It would seem a glaring omission on a site primarily catering for mothers.

OvaHere · 18/06/2019 11:29

@JustineMumsnet

I don't think the term 'trans rights' is helpful when what we are actually discussing is women's rights and the problems we face when special interest groups seek to dismantle them.

'Trans rights' from the offset implies that trans people don't have full human rights in the UK which isn't true. What they mean by that term is that they want to be included in the rights of a class of people (female) when they belong to the opposite classification (male).

JoannaCuppa · 18/06/2019 11:33

I welcome your stance. I see that it's important for women to be able to discuss facts, but that can be done whilst using non-offensive terminology.

Finding it hard to express a point accurately without resorting to offending terms, is the problem of the person writing, in my opinion, not the person who would be offended.

R0wantrees · 18/06/2019 11:34

Our aim in hosting this debate (which most other media, sites and platforms have elected not to do) is to promote freedom of speech, which means allowing all perspectives to be heard.

I had a post on the second thread about women on MN being able to identify males accurately reported & deleted because it linked to a website which 'used the wrong pronouns'

I think the article was a statement by Natasha Chart, Board Chair of WoLF (Women's Liberation Front)
Ive asked for clarification btw since this seems an extraordinary & serious precedent to set.

The article is an important powerful summary of the incredibly serious issues revealed by the sytemic Safeguarding failures in NSPCC & the utter failure of BBC /Guardian etc to provide accurate or balanced reporting which instead provided a platform for a few people to malign and smear women whose sole concerns are for Safeguarding children

The response by Natasha Chart provides this, she concludes:

Owen Jones thinks we at WoLF should be embarrassed over talking to conservatives at the Heritage Foundation? Nothing especially likely to happen could be more embarrassing than being represented in the political sphere by men like Owen Jones and James Makings, who apparently think it’s fine to masturbate at work, at a children’s safeguarding charity, and put it on film, then share this descriptively labeled amateur movie with the entire world.

Though if Jones is genuinely fearful of ordinary conservatives, let alone alt-right extremists, he should be so lucky as for them to think of women who have a care for child welfare, rather than himself, as representative of LGB interests. It’s disgraceful to suggest that aberrant sexual aggression and disregard for child safety is anything to do with same-sex attraction.

So it seems there is a question of priorities. My post did not include those extracts with male pronouns when referring to a prominant transwoman.

I have always respected & posted within MN guidelines & it was shared in good faith because of the content which summarised something which is a key concern of MN members. I have posted consistantly on these two threads about violence/abuse against women & children.

I wonder if those who reported did not read the full article.
I wonder how it has come to be the feelings of adults over the use of pronouns trumps risks to children's welfare.

Natasha Chart as chair of WoLF represents the position of many lesbians who have been impacted deeply by the widespread unquestioning prioritisation of 'Trans Rights'

I wondered a lot whilst following those 2 threads & thought a lot about patterns of control, how they manifest & how there is a need for better awareness.

JoannaCuppa · 18/06/2019 11:38

Saying MNHQ are putting pronouns before child safety is really unfair. We can discuss child safety with no problem. We just can't use banned terms to do it.

FizzyGreenWater · 18/06/2019 11:39

I don't even customarily follow or post on these topics or on the feminist boards, but I can say that I find the term cis incredibly offensive. It's a horrible term that aims to denigrate female identity. The fact that a lot of the time now it's just used ordinarily, as just another term, makes it worse.

I'd like to request that if the term TIM is an instant delete, so should CIS be.

R0wantrees · 18/06/2019 11:40

Saying MNHQ are putting pronouns before child safety is really unfair.

I didn't say that.