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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Update on our moderation of trans rights issues

65 replies

JustineMumsnet · 18/06/2019 10:23

Hi all,

It’s been roughly a year since we published our statement on moderation with regard to trans rights. Back then we felt that we needed to put in place some parameters to facilitate debate on the important issue of trans rights. We think this approach has improved things over the past months, but it remains a thorny one to moderate.

There have been several threads voicing concern about our approach and it’s probably worth addressing them systematically.

We’ve obviously noted some concerns about posts that are being reported from Twitter and by email (as opposed to reporting direct from our Talk boards). We don’t actually get a significant amount of reports from offsite (under 0.1% over the last 3 months) and the huge majority of concerns are directly reported posts from Mumsnet members. But whatever the origin, when we receive a report on a post, our standard approach is to assess the context, and then moderate it against the guidelines.

Many of you have posted to say you disagree with our language guidelines, particularly concerning the use of TIM in preference to transwoman. Our view is that this is an inflammatory term which trans people find offensive and therefore not conducive to creating and inclusive space for debate.

Another thing we’ve noticed when applying the guidelines is that they often support the case for keeping a post on the boards -- for example, we often say, ‘Thanks for the report, we’ve taken a look and the post doesn’t break our Talk guidelines’. And if we do receive a number of reports that result in no action, then we politely draw the reporter’s attention to our rule about vexatious reporting.

Concerns have been raised about our awareness of coercive control. We know that people are worried about this and our team have had training in recognising coercive control. In general, we always take context into account when taking any action.

Several folk have wondered why our three strikes system is used with regards to the FWR board. We’ve found it to be a useful moderation tool and in fact we now use the approach across all our forums. We don’t want to summarily ban people (apart from trolls) and we will always give members a chance to discuss our moderation decisions. It’s a useful indication of where you are with regard to the guidelines - if we’ve been in touch with you a couple of times, then users get a clear idea of where we are drawing the line.

One thing that might be useful to know is that it’s often generalisations that in our view create a hostile atmosphere likely to prevent civil debate that result in posts being taken down.

We’ve also picked up that some Mumsnet users feel it can be difficult for them to contribute to discussions around this topic. Our aim in hosting this debate (which most other media, sites and platforms have elected not to do) is to promote freedom of speech, which means allowing all perspectives to be heard. That means maintaining an environment that isn’t offputting to those with opinions outside the consensus. Labelling folks as ‘handmaidens’ or trolls purely because they have a different point of view isn’t conducive to this and if we see it we will step in and take action. We’re not asking everyone to agree - that would clearly be ridiculous - but we think it’s crucial that people with a variety of perspectives feel able to post.

In short we are trying our very hardest to maintain this important space for discussion, despite considerable and fairly relentless pressure and criticism and we firmly believe that those abiding by the spirit of constructive and civilised debate won’t be deleted or banned.

It’s a challenging issue to moderate and we apologise for occasional inconsistencies which are somewhat inevitable but we’ll continue to do our best to stick to our moderation principles and to make fair decisions.

Thanks as ever for your input

OP posts:
SuperLoudPoppingAction · 18/06/2019 20:49

'That is the entire point of intersectionality. Issues cross with each other.'

No - intersectionality is not intended as a way of studying competing rights of different groups.
It's about the politics of women's rights - for women - taking into consideration that women often have additional oppression - eg face racism and because they're women that takes the form of racialised misogyny

JoannaCuppa · 18/06/2019 21:06

Yes so women's rights and the rights of trans men overlap in places. As trans men were born female.

Trans women may well experience things such as sexual comments or being groped, which also tend to be issues that women have too.

I know what you mean about the rights sometimes seeming to compete, but I do think there is also intersectionality at play too sometimes.

JoannaCuppa · 18/06/2019 21:08

I agree that I didnt make it clear what I meant re intersectionality though, so it did read as me not knowing what it was. One day I shall learn to actually write what I mean 😂

RiotAndAlarum · 18/06/2019 21:13

I think that constraints, especially when they are explicit, are very useful for mindful communication. What do we really mean to say? Precise language can be devastating.

Also, by calling attention to constraints, we invoke them and clarify their outlines.

Satire and other forms of humour also remain available.

WhoopDeFuckingDo · 18/06/2019 21:31

CharleyParley neither male who identifies as trans nor trans-identified male are banned expressions. It is the acronym for the latter that is frowned upon and more probably than not will lead to a deletion.

I don’t think that’s what mn is going for here at all.

That would be like saying TERF is not ok but “trans exclusionary radical feminist”, or “feminist who excludes trans and is radical” are acceptable.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 19/06/2019 09:38

Unless it's maybe because Trans identifying male shortens down to an acronym that is also a male name?

NameChangerAmI · 23/06/2019 08:45

@MNHQ

Is there a glossary on Mn of trans related approved terms and acronyms? If so, please and someone direct me to it?

A glossary of banned terms and relating acronyms would also be helpful. The whole thing is so confusing.

This should preferably be a specific glossary for mners wanting to join in discussions about trans issues. not just the odd acronym thrown into the mix along all the others on the site.

MichaelMumsnet · 24/06/2019 07:59

Hi @NameChangerAml
We're asking for everyone to contribute in the spirit of civil debate. Here's the relevant section from the guidelines:

We absolutely understand that some users may have concerns about accidentally triggering deletion and will want complete clarity on what merits deletion – and we must admit, given the enormous resource that goes into moderating these discussions, it’s tempting to try to come up with a definitive list of banned terms. But in our experience, hard and fast rules simply spur the determined on to circumvent their spirit – and what we’re trying to do here is create a more civilised and constructive discussion, rather than operating a tick box on language.

NameChangerAmI · 25/06/2019 09:11

OK. Thanks for answering that @MNHQ

Personally, I'd just rather a list be drawn up, and then for everyone to then have their say on the list. I'm literally wanting to contribute to discussions, but am refraining because I don't know what the correct and inoffensive terms to use are.

Also, there are so many acronyms already in place, that I keep having to look up, in order to be able to interpret the posts on threads. It just makes everything more difficult. I feel that providing a provisional list would be a good starting point, but accept that others may feel the opposite.

Personally, I am extremely offended by the term ciswoman / cis woman, and would like to see this term banned.

NameChangerAmI · 25/06/2019 09:13

Tbh @MNHQ, your guidelines bring further confusion rather than clarity, but that's probably just me Grin.

Tingface · 25/06/2019 09:20

MNHQ please will you confirm that “cis” and “terf” will be treated in the same way as TIM?

And if not, please will you explain why?

CharlieParley · 25/06/2019 09:42

@MichaelMumsnet your guidelines don't just cause further confusion, it's also completely counterproductive to have deleted my post containing (I now realise but didn't before) a banned expression because I wasn't using it in context but discussing my view that it could be used.

What is the point of deleting that post? It would have been far more productive for whoever decided to delete my message to respond to it by saying something along the lines of "You are mistaken, the whole expression, not just the acronym, is banned. So don't use it or you'll get deleted" or whatever.

As for your contention that you have banned the expression "trans-identifying male" because such males don't identify as trans but "transwomen", this is demonstrably untrue because there are many trans identities for males (such as trans femme, non-binary, gender-fluid, trans non-binary etc). All of these identities fall under the trans umbrella, which is why "trans-identifying male" is not merely an alternate expression for "transwoman" but encompasses all males who don't identify as men.

I'm not arguing for you to allow the phrase, btw, just wanted to let you know.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 25/06/2019 09:42

I think this thread is an excellent place and time to ask whether you have read Ben Elton's Identity Crisis, MNHQ? You do, after all, get name-checked in it on this very issue.

It's a fascinating satirical exploration of, among many other things, the logical labyrinths people find themselves in when scientific fact can no longer be spoken aloud.

YogaDrone · 25/06/2019 10:26

@MNHQ I'm still really confused. So the acronym starting with T and ending with either M or F (depending on the sex of the person) is definitely banned. Yes?

But the acronym beginning with T and ending with ERF is not necessarily banned unless someone reports the post?

The offensive term "CIS" is also allowed despite the fact that it's scientifically incorrect and demeaning to women to be identified by something they are not? As well as not being an isotope I'm also not a rhododendron, or a kettle, or a yorkshire terrier and a billion other things!

Personally I'd prefer that both T...M/F and CIS and TERF were not banned at all, however offensive I personally find CIS. This is because the debate is what is important, not my feelings. However is T...M/F does cause an immediate moderation of the post then CIS and TERF should as well.

The passage from the guidelines, with respect, doesn't actually say anything definitive. I do not often post because I don't want to be banned. I don't want to offend anyone but I would like to talk about how the enormous rise of the trans community is affecting the rights of women. I don't want to be banned because I like it here. I've been here for nearly 12 years and I have got a lot of support and learnt a tremendous amount from this forum over the years.

Can I use the terms "male/female who identifies as transgender"?

This whole subject seems to hinge on the ability to arbitrarily delete/moderate posts with the sole intention of silencing women. This seems like an anathema on a site created to provide a space for the discussion of the issues facing parents (mainly mothers).

That said, I am grateful that Mumsnet has the backbone to allow this debate, albeit with the posters playing Russian roulette with semantics, when others have silenced debate entirely. Thank you Flowers

MichaelMumsnet · 27/06/2019 09:21

Thanks for the comments so far. Here's another relevant section from the guidelines:

We absolutely understand that some users may have concerns about accidentally triggering deletion and will want complete clarity on what merits deletion – and we must admit, given the enormous resource that goes into moderating these discussions, it’s tempting to try to come up with a definitive list of banned terms. But in our experience, hard and fast rules simply spur the determined on to circumvent their spirit – and what we’re trying to do here is create a more civilised and constructive discussion, rather than operating a tick box on language.

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions.

As you can appreciate, this is a challenging issue to moderate, and very often decisions are subjective. As such there are bound to be a few inconsistencies. We strongly believe, however, that those abiding by the spirit of constructive and civilised discussion will not be at risk of being banned for any length of time.

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