MNHQ - where is the line in the sand on comments about trans people?

[yetanothertranswoman]

Or does anything go?

Do you have a line in the sand about comments people can make? How do you decide if comments go too far?

There are plenty of things that get deleted on MN about other groups. Plenty of controversial opinions. But trans people seem to be a group where almost anything goes.

How do you decide where the line is?

Do you understand that

Of course I do. Can you understand why some people might think that a whole thread with many similar comments might be seen as 'not in the spirit of MN'?

I'm sorry you feel rejected in that way. But ultimately we are all responsible for how we present ourselves and how we conduct ourselves.

Statistically speaking, a man who presents as male is more likely to attract both straight female and gay male partners. The reverse goes for women who present as female.

A lesbian is goung to have fewer potential choices of sexual partner than a straight woman, because fewer women are homosexual than straight.

A man who feels he is a lesbian is going to have a very small group of that small group to choose from, because most women who define as lesbian define being a lesbian as same-sex attraction. The odds may be against you, but it's not personal, it's just life.

Well, I could make the same argument that the thread should be deleted due to the abhorrent posts that basically condone social coercion when it comes to sex. Very rapey.

Not being seen as sexually desirable by most is not something females (usually) find upsetting or offensive, but males (usually) do

I am sure most trans people are more than aware of how people feel about them sexually and aren't upset when other people mention it. Because they know it themselves.

Also, if you do understand then why did you take such immediate offence and try to make out I was saying that anyone’s relationship with a trans person is “that bad”? That isn’t what I said at all. I basically said what I repeated above.

A man who feels he is a lesbian is going to have a very small group of that small group to choose from, because most women who define as lesbian define being a lesbian as same-sex attraction. The odds may be against you, but it's not personal, it's just life

Who is you in that comment?

Also, if you do understand then why did you take such immediate offence and try to make out I was saying that anyone’s relationship with a trans person is “that bad

What comment are you referring to?

The comment on the thread you are on about, you part quoted me and put “is a relationship with a trans person that bad?!”

Seems like you either didn’t understand what I wrote or you deliberately tried to take offence where there was non.

Seems like you either didn’t understand what I wrote or you deliberately tried to take offence where there was non

Maybe I didn't understand. The phrase was something like 'the idea of a relationship with a trans person fills me with revulsion'.

And I said 'Feelings of revulsion at having a relationship with a trans person? Seriously? Are trans people that bad'

I know how you replied. I know you weren't trying be offensive or upsetting.

There are two separate things going on here: sexual orientation and sexual preferences.

Sexual preferences are about your 'type' - dark or fair, tall or short, masculine or feminine, build, eye colour, dress sense, tastes, interests, politics, personality, religion or lack of, attitude to family etc. etc.

We all discriminate all the time based on our preferences, not only in sexual relationships but in our friendships too. This is completely OK. If you don't think this is OK then please describe the alternative in a way that doesn't sound like a Black Mirror episode.

Sexual orientation is about which sex you are attracted to - male, female or both. For some people this is fluid but mostly not. It's a protected characteristic because throughout history both men and women have been beaten, raped and killed for being attracted to the wrong sex. This is still going on today throughout the world, including western countries.

No man has been pushed off a building because he preferred an athletic build.

No woman has been correctively raped because she preferred smaller breasts.

I said sex and me.

I genuinely am very sorry if what I meant was not made clear in my post on that thread. I really didnt wish to cause you or anyone else offence. I was talking in relation to myself only and I am sorry and can understand why you felt upset if what I hadn’t said wasn’t clear.

Thanks fission

I think I was just a bit upset by yet another thread that seemed to be started based on a blog post just to get the petition mentioned and turned into another thread where people made their feelings on trans people very clear. (and not just their feelings on sex).

I am against self ID - for many reasons. And I know people are trying to raise awareness.

Has anyone else noticed the change of tone on these threads

Not really.

Has anyone else noticed the change of tone on these threads?

Yes.

I welcome all the people who have joined MN purely because this is where the debate is allowed to happen and I'm extremely grateful to MNHQ for hosting and moderating

We're primarily a community of women and parents though and so most of us will be coming to this debate with the interests of women and children at the front of our minds.

Lots of transwomen come here to tell us and to get us to understand.

Far fewer come here to listen and engage.

I'm not happy with the level of tiptoeing around and tone policing that goes on as soon as a trans person posts. It feels discriminatory to treat trans posters with kid gloves when any other poster would be robustly debated with as an equal.

I'm not happy with the level of tiptoeing around and tone policing that goes on as soon as a trans person posts

If there is tiptoeing that goes on when a trans person posts, I can only imagine what normal foot steps would look like.

OP, that's you I was referring to. (Assuming your username is accurate). Probably relevant to anyone trans though.

OP, that's you I was referring to

Unusual you used the word 'lesbian' then.

@Haidees Could this possibly be a male/ female difference in perspective? A socialisation thing?

This with bells on.

(in the following comment, all the "you" is for ease of comprehension and meant in a plural/non-personally-addressed way, to similar OPs everywhere)

There are threads like this all over the internet where the OP feels they have to point out how marginalised and hard done by they are, how society is mean to them, how they are the ones suffering.

And tbh, it is with a little bit of sadness that I realise that I am now rolling my eyes and saying "errrr....welcome to womanhood!" every time I see stuff like this My heart has hardened.

Please don't try and explain to us how oppression feels, or what it's like to be worried about how society accepts you based on your appearance or have your concerns minimised or belittled. We have lived that shit our whole lives already. The fact it is a whole new world for you is because you are a man underneath it all, raised and socialised with all that brings, in a man's world. You are not used to being second best.

Well, you wanted to be a woman, so have at it. Maybe all the unpaid wifework, mental load, drudgery, caring and rest of it will be next on your list of womanly deeds. Unless it really was just all about the superficial stuff and getting your end away with the lesbians.

I'm not sure what you mean. A woman may define as lesbian whilst also sleeping with trans identified males, if she is someone who thinks sexuality is about gender. Those who think lesbianism is about homosexuality (most people) would disagree. She can still call herself whatever she wants though.

"If there is tiptoeing that goes on when a trans person posts, I can only imagine what normal foot steps would look like."

No need to imagine. Just check out AIBU on any day of the week.