MNHQ - where is the line in the sand on comments about trans people?

[yetanothertranswoman]

Or does anything go?

Do you have a line in the sand about comments people can make? How do you decide if comments go too far?

There are plenty of things that get deleted on MN about other groups. Plenty of controversial opinions. But trans people seem to be a group where almost anything goes.

How do you decide where the line is?

How would people feel if:

• a straight woman said the thought of sex with another woman made her feel ill
• a straight man said the thought of sex with another man made him feel ill
• a gay man said the thought of sex with a woman made him feel ill
• a lesbian said the thought of sex with a man made her feel ill

I'm not saying any of these are nice to hear BTW and I agree with AssassinatedBeauty that the posts expressing disgust on that thread spoiled a useful discussion.

I suspect the comments were more to do with sexual orientation than specifically about trans people, although obviously that was the context in this case, because I've heard all the above examples frequently. Usually we don't hear those things because usually people are not pressurised to go against their sexual orientation so they have nothing to lose by being polite.

A simple ahem and Peace and Love would do.

Yes, I agree.

Me too, I have had homosexual friends who have been very scathing about women's vagina' and have wretched about the thought of seeing a vagina. As said I'm heterosexual, I know this because although I find some women attractive I know I couldn't go 'down there', because I'm straight. Sexual orientation is just that, sexual orientation.

Ultimately it’s about the language rather than the sentiment IMO.

We all have our sexual preferences and preferences as to who we would and wouldn’t want a relationship with, and there’s nothing wrong with having preferences and neither is it discriminatory to have those preferences, i.e. you might not find someone who is grossly over/under weight attractive, or someone with large amounts of tattoo’s, or as a gay/straight person you wouldn’t be attracted to the opposite sex or as a heterosexual person you might only be attracted to other heterosexuals.

We reject people sexually for all manner of reasons and that’s fine. Nobody has the right to have sex with anyone else or to claim discrimination if they want sex with that person and that person doesn’t.

However, when you start talking of people as being disgusting or revolting and making disparaging remarks such as “with or without dick,” in this instance,) that is when it crosses a line from personal choice into feeling the need to be offensive.

The only time I would possibly make exception would be on a personal hygiene level i.e. someone who never showered or wiped their arse or the like because those are things which are of their own making iyswim.

But in the former examples there is usually plenty of time prior to being in a position where you are going to be having sex to quietly distance yourself without the need to be hurtful and offensive.

As long as stating your sexual orientation doesn't get you accused of transphobia, of course.

But that's just it, gay men say offensive things about women frequently but we don't get hurt or offended because that is their sexual preference. People of all sexual orientation say horrific things about all manner of things they don't particularly like, as you mentioned, fat, tattoos etc....... Why should trans get a free pass?

Because many trans women see themselves as women (and no, this isn’t about self ID, I’m talking about trans women who are living as women be that pre or post op.)

I don’t particularly care if a gay man describes a vagina as revolting to him because gay men have a sexual preference for other men, and as such he’s not going to enter on to my sexual radar, iyswim? However, if you are living as a woman and your thought is to want to have relationships with other men or with gay women, then those describing you as revolting and sickening will feel different because they may have envisaged at some point having a relationship, and when these kinds of thoughts are put out there then it is hurtful and insulting to think that people have issue with that.

Similarly with disabilities for instance. There are people who wouldn’t enter into a relationship with someone with certain disabilities, however if they described that fact as being revolting, vomit inducing etc then it would be hurtful to a person with disabilities who already struggles to find a relationship (hence why programmes such as the undatables exist.)

I wouldn’t want a relationship with someone who is bisexual because I am sexually attracted to heterosexual men only. That is my preference, and yes, I was called homophobic for saying it, but it is purely down to my preference. However, if I’d gone online and said that I wouldn’t want to have a sexual relationship with a man who’d “had his dick up another man’s arsehole and who loves dick as well as pussy,” then that brings my views and the expression thereof into the realms of offensive and hurtful. Iyswim?

PS: I put that last bit into quotes to make the point not as an expression of my views.....

I can imagine (though I don't know for sure), that a lesbian might find a vagina attached to a man (surgically), a bit revolting which is why they most likely wouldn't be attracted to said transwoman. It's orientation. I'm not sure I would find a trans man attractive either.... It's orientation.

Because many trans women see themselves as women (and no, this isn’t about self ID, I’m talking about trans women who are living as women be that pre or post op.)

I don’t particularly care if a gay man describes a vagina as revolting to him because gay men have a sexual preference for other men, and as such he’s not going to enter on to my sexual radar, iyswim? However, if you are living as a woman and your thought is to want to have relationships with other men or with gay women, then those describing you as revolting and sickening will feel different because they may have envisaged at some point having a relationship, and when these kinds of thoughts are put out there then it is hurtful and insulting to think that people have issue with that.

No. Fuck this shit.

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act

(1)Sexual orientation means a person's sexual orientation towards—

(a)persons of the same sex,

(b)persons of the opposite sex, or

(c)persons of either sex.

Sex. Not gender.

What is revolting and sickening is transactivists' demands that lesbians ignore their own sexual orientation and consider male people as potential partners. Lesbians are not there to validate transwomen's identities.

Sure it's hurtful if you are male and have decided you're a lesbian and the lesbians say no. Truth hurts sometimes.

If you don't want to hear the hurtful truth maybe don't pressurise lesbians to overcome their own legally protected boundaries.

I don't believe transwomen are women but I still think some of the comments on that thread - talk of feeling ill, calling genitals 'surgical wounds'- were deliberately cruel and seemed to be seeing how far they could push their disgust. But then I don't shrug off the awful misogyny I've heard from some gay men about women as just sexual preferences either.

Encouraging people to believe they can completely change sex and will be accepted as the opposite sex seems, to me at least, quite cruel when we know that isnt true. but there have always been trans people, and do bear in mind that there are trans men as well, and that many trans women do see themselves as trans women but still want to live as women.

It’s only now that a minority have started to speak out that things have become more heated, but I for instance have a cousin who had a trans woman in their workplace and when she transitioned she was permitted to use the women’s toilets etc, and this was over ten years ago.

I also have a friend whose husband transitioned but never had surgery, and because she was living as a woman they couldn’t get divorced, the marriage had to be annulled because same sex marriage was illegal and as such it was acknowledged that it had never happened. And that would have been about fifteen years ago.

So this stuff has always been there, and as a whole people have always accepted it. It’s only now that there are some vocal minorities on both sides of the discussion that it’s become more of an issue which we apparently all need to be aware of.

Just to clarify - are there people here who believe the cotton ceiling is a valid thing to argue for? Are there people here who think women should be polite and avoid being hurtful while discussing the cotton ceiling? Is everyone else OK with this?

Thats why I think telling transwomen they are women amd will be accepted as women is so damaging and hurtful

Some of us know how society sees us and knows how acceptance varies.

Some of us are quite clearly aware that the idea of possibly having a relationship with a trans person fills some people with physical revulsion.

Just in case we weren't aware of that, it's clear now. But when you are trans, you are more than aware of what people think of you.

But OTOH, there are plenty of people who do accept us and are more than happy to entertain the possibility of a relationship.

So that's a positive. They are just unlikely to be the kind of people who will be posting on MN and expressing that view.

(there are websites where men are MORE than happy to express how much they would like to have sex with a transwoman. But those people are probably not the kind of place to find a life partner. But they are a place to find someone who wants to experiment)

Is this whole thread basically about you being upset that some people stated they wouldn’t have sex with trans people?

Is this whole thread basically about you being upset that some people stated they wouldn’t have sex with trans people

That didn't upset me in the slightest.

Some of the language used to describe why they wouldn't have a relationship may well 'not have been in the spirit of Mumsnet'.

Well, why bleat on about how many men are willing to have sex with trans people? If it’s just about the language used then why have you repeatedly brought that point up on the threads?

If it’s just about the language used then why have you repeatedly brought that point up on the threads

Because it's kind of nice to remind myself that there are people out there who don't find the idea of having sex with trans people physically repulsive.