Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

But everyone else is getting to invent new words, I want a shot

Interesting list of "unlawfully killed transgender people" here. Aside from the fact that too many cases remain unsolved, or were not properly investigated at the time, it's striking that where a conviction has been brought the perpetrators are all men (and one transwoman)...

But it's still definitely the fault of feminists. We literally have blood on our hands. Apparently.

Wankingmonkey let's be honest, some of them don't even bother to wear a dress. Danielle Muscato, anyone?

Wankingmonkey let's be honest, some of them don't even bother to wear a dress. Danielle Muscato, anyone?

Well exactly. They are simply guys who dislike that women don't bow down to them. This is the new way to silence women while eroding their rights and claiming entitlement to their bodies. Is the way I see it.

Just reading that list, Olenna. Obviously all those violent homophobic men who killed these transwomen did so directly after a reading binge of Dworkin, Greer, Bindel and Reilly-Cooper. There's no other possible explanation.

Absolutely, micro.

In the interests of balance (and because I'm not saying that it never happens), here is a report of three women charged with attacking a transwoman in Long Beach earlier this year

You rarely see that commented on Olenna. As you say, numbers of murdered trans women (who are mainly involved in prostitution in developing countries) are consistent with the much larger numbers of murders of women in those countries generally. Male violence rates are very high in these countries. If liberal feminists weren't so in love with the idea of "sex work" and hating all SWERFs they might like to take a look at that, and why so many trans women in developing countries are involved in prostitution and therefore more vulnerable to male violence.

My last in response to Olenna's about the intersectional nature of violence against trans women.

*Fruit
*
Are you MTT?

*Fruit
*
many voices wishing to abolish sex work are sex work survivors.

Just checked the Popular free porn sites

There are between 50-60k vids each with transwomen MtF or similar tags.

For transmen FtM and similar tags fewer than 2k.

That to me says transgender people can/are affected by sex work and the violence that comes with it.

Granted clips/vids total doesn't give full facts but does give a hint to the popularity of that type of porn.

Given that bondage - made popular by eg 50shades and similar booksand everyone was trying it last year - only brings in 45k hits...

Trans women are absolutely affected by sex work and the violence that comes with it. And the irony is that the people who want to end sex work, and end male violence, and abolish gender so that people can present as they wish without fear, are the very people that the trans lobby treats as the ultimate enemy. It would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic.

Oh of course but I just wanted to highlight the popularity of such porn and it's usually accessed by men. Men are the ones driving it. Not women.

Paris lees validated her transwomanness by prostitution and "men from far and wide would come and fuck her" (her words ish). I

So basically She has issues about feeling desired OR she is taking the typical man stance when it comes women who complain about cat calling and unwanted attention 'you'll be too old to get it one day' basically?

As a woman I do not need a man to validate my womanhood. Only men would think that we do.

"The child and adolescent brain should not be tested on with hormone therapies and puberty blockers"

Puberty blockers are risky, potentially with very serious consequences such as infertility and increased cancer risk. When DD entered puberty early, her pediatrician said that puberty blockers could be considered but they had risks & consequences and they were avoided in all but a few cases where extreme short stature is feared if puberty is allowed to take place so early.

Unless if the child in question wants to be the other sex, I suppose, in which case all caution to the wind and let's applaud the family's courage

Hello all

“… 'misgendering' is a useful proxy for deciding whether someone is being respectful or not. I imagine there are a team of mods responding to reports at MNHQ, who I'm sure are time-stressed, and it shouldn't be expected of them to have read widely and have understood all the nuances of this debate. Of course they're going to need clear and simple guidelines, as do we all.”

There's some truth in what Plenty says - misgendering has been a useful shorthand for our community team because in our experience it very often has broken our Talk Guidelines. In other words, it's been used aggressively, to inflame or provoke, to be insulting, or as a personal attack.

In all of this very complex and rapidly evolving stuff, though, we've relied ultimately on our guidelines. We think they make Mumsnet the kind of place that most people want it to be - a place which is tolerant of differences of opinion, and where deliberate rudeness and belittling doesn't stand; fundamentally a place where the rules of civilised debate apply.

The issue of pronouns seems to be derailing progress towards civilised debate here; it's become a bit of a distraction from that overarching aim, rather than a means of achieving it. Our TGs, as we've said often, cover all this, so for now - as they do with all contentious issues - our community team will make decisions on a case by case basis; the guidelines will be front and centre, and the team will use them to decide whether any given post is intended to inflame or provoke, is a personal attack, not in the spirit etc etc without blanket bans on any given phrase or expression.

We hope this reassures those worried about deletion/banning etc and that we can focus on what really counts - that is, ensuring that Mumsnet is a place where all voices can be heard and those who need it can find support.

A quick but sincere thank you to those who've acknowledged the difficulty of our position here - we are doing our very best in rather choppy waters.

Couple of other clarifications:

I have been told that they have staff members and/or sponsors affiliated with the TA movement so that is no doubt why.

This is absolutely not the case.

I do want to know that reasoned posts based on proven scientific facts, or discussing evidence, won't be deleted because those facts or research may upset someone.

TBH this has always been the case, but we're happy to confirm it again. Reasoned posts whose tone is not inflammatory and/or deliberately provocative or goady are within our TGs and won't be deleted.

I do not understand why you seek to prioritise the feelings of parents of those who are transitioning. Why have you ignored the feelings of parents, including adolescent lesbians who are particularly at risk in this world of TA.

What we're trying to do is support all parents. It's difficult, but we're trying.

MNHQ

micro

Oh he can fuck right off!

fruit

Could you look at the photo at the bottom of the article micro posted please....do you honestly not have a problem with somone like that stating that they are a woman and that anyone who misgenders them is transohobic

Not a trick question honestly and i wont take the conversation any further no matter what your answer is

Sorry MNHQ

Didnt see your post

So, HQ, if I say:

Alex Drummond is on the board of Stonewall. He uses eyeliner.
Paris Lees is a journalist. He has nice hair.
Anna Lee stood for a position in NUS. He lost.
Danielle Muscato has a beard. I do not like his beard.

Is this OK? Given that all these individuals expect to be called 'she'? If another poster objects to what I have said, asks me to use 'she' and I refuse, is that OK? If they are offended by my refusal, but my refusal is rooted in my commitment to using language accurately, am I OK, or will I be deleted, warned, or banned?

I disagree that the use of pronouns is a distraction. It is integral to the issue. Language describes the world, and the way people understand and conceptualise the world is through language. If we are to say of MTT that they are 'she', that inevitably impacts, even if it is little by little, as a drip-drip process, on our understanding of trans issues. It is an erosion.