Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

I know Nowt, I am hugely conflicted too.

I've asked vocal TAs what it means to feel like a women. I've never had an answer actually defining it, just "you just do" often with insults and cries of bigot, ignorant, stupid, hater and get yourself educated. They can't answer this - then you usually just get blocked after a final insult or two. Questions are never answered. Some remain civil but the two stances are so polarised it's hard to really discuss.

They do have a lot of science reports and studies they think backs them up. Nothing I've read actually says that just because they feel or identify differently to the majority of men, to the accepted stereotypes, that the brain patterns of Trans folk differing from non trans- actually them women or female.

The non-trans thing might be good for women, though. You get trans and non-trans, and some non-trans are inevitably the erstwhile men with all their privilege. So the erstwhle women are lumped in with them, and suddenly women are the same as men and we share the same status and privilege and power. Unless the men are prepared to go down a few pegs, which they won't be.

I really struggle with this

I agree that Mumsnet have been very good on these types of thread and generally aren't Deletion happy

I think the vast majority on here wouldnt intend to misgender someone on purpose

But i do not believe that someone with a penis is a woman, i dont. I dont think a man with a beard and penis is "widening the bandwidth of what it is like to be a woman" he isnt.

I have no problem with people believing that they are in the wrong body and have every sympathy with someone who is unable to wear what they want to wear or act how they want to act because of some stupid gender rule

But stating those things is going to get me deleted isnt it?

Or is it not, because i am really confused

Also applauds Dworkin.

I've never really thought about it before but, yes, it is cruel to tell people that they can change sex. If a 12yr old boy wants to be a girl then there will never be any periods, they will never give birth etc. And to be really and utterly brutally honest a heterosexual man will never want to have sex with you. We are setting people up for some massive future disappointment by pretending otherwise.

And also, that rule is going to apply to Stephonknee as much as it does to Miranda or Jan Morris. You can't pick and choose who gets to have woman status. Any man who says they are a woman, even occasionally has to get it.

I think PP are overstating the sanctity of scientific fact. If I'm pregnant but tell someone I'm not because I don't want them to know, or it might hurt them due to infertility, or I prefer to tell someone else first - I'm denying a scientific fact. The world won't come to an end, I'm not dissing pregnant women, I've just decided that something else has priority over scientific facts. If I dye my hair, I'm lying to the world about the scientific fact of my hair colour. Again, so what? I think I'm entitled to call a trans woman "she" because I choose to prioritise good manners and consideration for another person over scientific fact in that instance.

You can do what you like, Notme. As can others. The question is what should happen to the people who can't stomach being gaslighted and asked to pretend they believe something they don't.

NotMe your being secretly pregnant doesn't have real-world implications for women and girls though, does it? Colouring your hair isn't something that will impact upon anybody's rights or safety, is it?

It's one thing to tell little white lies. It's quite another to ask people to completely deny biological truths about members of whole class of people, especially when that class has historically oppressed the other for millennia, and especially when that oppression is based on biology.

Notme
But soon it won't be good manners; you will be legally forced to use pronouns not associated with one's birth, whether or not you believe it is untrue to science or you believe it's fine to be 'nice'.

What next will be legislated to be true against all logic or science?

And to continue poltergoose's point above, it wouldn't just be you denying that you were pregnant. It would be you insisting that everyone else had to deny it, even if you had a belly like a beach ball.

I don't think you can overstate the sanctity of scientific fact. It is what it is - it's a proven fact. You're not denying scientific facts in your examples, in the first you know you're pregnant, you're not believing that you are not pregnant.

A woman will always be a woman, each strand of her DNA is female. People can present however they wish, but they can not ever be the opposite sex. That is a scientific fact.

I'm very new to Mumsnet (as a poster, rather less new as a lurker) but I'd be completely stunned if as an organisation they felt able to take any kind of battling stance on all this, to be honest, Blistory is right. At the minute it seems to me that a combination of ignorance and "oh it doesn't matter" ism has taken over the general media and political narrative, and they all think they're being frightfully trendy about this. (And let's face it when has actual feminism featured at all in either the media or political world). Mumsnet is showing itself prepared to host these discussions, and to be tweeted as hosting them. Which makes it about the bravest place there is at present.

I'm not concerned about who wins the pronoun battle. The reality is that most of us in a face to face situation defer to the other persons wishes.

What I am concerned about is influencing the next Gender Recognition Act or whatever legislation is coming next. I won't have any influence if I come from a place of hostility that attacks a minority group no matter if I'm righter than right. If I can keep my arguments focused on the harm that it can cause and will cause women, I have a much better chance of being listened to. It's not about being nice, it's about being successful.

Blistory IS Justine really. And I understand.

Frustrated.

Sigh. Yes, re blistory et al, a lot of people are making a lot of good points. MN are doing their best I suppose. It's too soon for a battling stance, as Dog points out. This is the only mainstream site where these conversations are even allowed, bar subreddits. We will probably have to wait for the tide to turn before we can reasonably expect them to stick their necks out more than they already have. It's disappointing but I suppose predictable. I shall try to see it as losing a battle on the way to winning a war.

NotMe321 wrote - "If I'm pregnant but tell someone I'm not because I don't want them to know, or it might hurt them due to infertility, or I prefer to tell someone else first - I'm denying a scientific fact."

I think a closer comparison to the scale of denial of biology that goes with transgenderism would be if a pregant woman said to an infertile woman something like: "I'm not pregnant, because, like you, I can't get pregnant because I'm also infertile" or "Of course I'm not pregnant, only men can get pregnant".

Blistory again I think your points are eminently reasonable, but I'm not convinced we are actually getting anywhere in real world terms by giving way on this. It's just too easy to ignore us when we meekly accept it. I'm not sure where you think this success is going to come from exactly.

I too am not expecting MNHQ or any individual to publicly take sides.
But I DO expect them as a matter of policy to let statements of well recognised FACT stand.

And yes, who is pushing the TA agenda? To what end??
It is all very confusing.

Blistory, really nice to see you

I hope you're right, microferret.

I don't think Blistory is suggesting giving way or meek acceptance. S/he is asking for all out but targeted fight. I think.

NotMe, you're being disingenuous. I don't know if you're being so deliberately or accidentally. If someone pretends they're a natural blonde when they're really a brunette then that impacts on zero people. It means nothing. Pretending that someone with a penis is a woman has enormous implications. It already means that in America and Canada, schoolgirls have to share changing rooms with boys, because those boys insist that they are girls too and the law has to go along with pretending that their feelings are the same as facts.

The cult of trans - and it works very precisely like a cult - is like every religion: it relies on demanding that scientific fact and logicality is dismissed in favour of all sorts of fanciful ideas, ranging from the well-meaning but a bit daft, to the downright debasement of self required to agree.

Your thinking reflects that of a lot of people, and it's dangerous. Just how can someone find relying on scientific facts negative, something they should calm down over a bit?! What is the alternative - agree with any old shite, just to make people happy? Shall we all pretend that Santa exists?! I just can't get my head around thinking that lies matter more than fact!

"Over my cold dead body"

Now I hate the NRA (and the dick Charlton Heston, but I can get on board with this sentiment re the silencing of women

Especially as death/rape threats are acceptable these days

I know. But the male/female issue is at the heart of many of the things which we clearly want to fight. It's not just about pronouns. We should be able to call out male entitlement and misogyny in the trans lobby, raise our concerns about autogynephilia and transing young children who might grow up to be gay or lesbian. We should support women who have faced abusive behaviour from their late transitioning husbands. Having to tie ourself in knots to not say trans women are men makes some of these issues impossible to talk about and others very difficult.