Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

to all who are weary of this fight but who will keep trudging on because women and girls matter.

I also agree with Blistory.

Agree with Blistory. What are you seriously expecting from mn? Going round and round focussing on the wrong thing.

I'm posting this incredibly articulate video by a 22 yo female detransitioner who blogs as guideonragingstars, I think on Tumblr. She is living proof that both parents and children need to have information about the full spectrum of potential outcomes at their fingertips. She speaks frankly about the way that nobody really helped her explore any other alternatives other than transition.

Girls and boys like her - and their parents - are the real victims of this censorship of debate and discussion. So I think it is at best misguided and at worst disingenuous for MNHQ to cite these parents as a reason to shut down legitimate debate. It is vital that there are places where people who are contemplating such drastic surgeries and hormonal treatments can go to see all the arguments for and against such action. Regarding pronouns, I think this is something that those who do transition must be prepared for. Yes, many people will use your pronouns out of courtesy and kindness, but it won't make you biologically female / male. It seems to me that of the TW I have encountered, those who are the happiest are those who have fully accepted the reality of their biology.

If trans ideology is robust, consistent and logical, it should stand up to rigorous challenge and debate. That is the point of free speech - good ideas will always stand, regardless of what is thown at them. Winning a debate is about getting other people to agree with you through the use of evidence, reasoning and logic. It isn't about silencing and erasing every statement that challenges your motion.

What are you seriously expecting from mn?

I think we would like MNHQ to stop deleting neutrally written, fact based posts.

Blistory, I totally see where you're coming from. I agree with a lot of the points you have made. But I think posters have just got to the point where they want to draw a line in the sand, because it's not moving in a positive direction for women and we're not being taken account of by anyone. It seems like we are just going to be steamrollered over.

I very much value this space, and the ability to discuss this in a reasonably civil way. I don't want this discussion to move to walled gardens like Facebook groups or Reddit subs. I don't want it to be an echo chamber. I want to debate these issues with transactivists and vocal trans allies, as well as with gender critical trans people and parents and friends of trans people.

But I very much need to stand up and be counted in some sort of meaningful way. To not do so feels like letting the bullies win, to acknowledge my complete insignificance as a woman, as a class of people who can be pushed aside so easily. It's deeply upsetting, even triggering to me, as a survivor of sexual assault and coercive control domestic violence. I really don't know what to do for the best, but I don't want to give an inch. As I know a mile will be taken.

Blistory
I posted a few days ago re the funding of the sudden rise of transgender activism. According to the many parents' testimonies, the trans movement is well funded. Where would this money come from to make the movement suddenly so powerful? Not from fruitloops posting on Twitter, that much I know.

It is in the interests of fundamentalist Christian groups to promote the trans agenda, as it counters the homosexual case. Iran is not the only stakeholder to recognise the benefits of trans. Also, to be go for the complete conspiracy theory, Russia is certainly very anti homosexual. What a great solution to cure the West of the homosexual curse first!

It might well sound nuts, but given the Russian hacking of the Democratic Party and financial association with Trump, well, who knows? The Russians are contributors to many 'charities' in their interests and have been generally backing extreme left and right wingers in Europe, including Marie Le Penn. Muddying the waters, as they say

So yes, I appreciate where you are coming from, although where you are coming from is clearly a position of more knowledge that most of us are privy to.

So spill...

MN's response seems really confused and agree with those saying popping in at 10pm to post a response in the last few posts is amateur at best, deliberate avoidance at worst.

And the idea that we can't state scientific fact in case we offend or put off a hypothetical lurking parent is utterly bizarre. We are allowed to be robust on the anti vax threads, religious threads, homeopathy threads, "I believe in ghosts" threads and other ideas that fly in the face of current scientific knowledge. Nobody has ever said we can't post facts in case it hurts someone's feelings.

To steal someone else's analogy if a poster said " my son thinks he's napoleon" would we be deleted if we said "he's not" in case it hurts someone's feelings? Is now the only acceptable response to say "buy him a horse and put him in charge of Prussian cavalry charges". Why is it this issue we have to bend to delusions on?

I've said it on another thread, but I was suspended and told it wouldn't be lifted unless I promised not to misgender in future. Misgendering was my on,y misdemeanour, so to say that nobody has been banned for misgendering alone is misleading (though might be technically true because I didnt end up being banned. Posie's exchanges from them are very similar to mine and I think she was banned)

This is bullshit, I'm still Spartacus and MN your response is a shambles.

I wrote this message to MNHQ last week - haven't received any response (I was especially polite because I don't want to be banned/blocked!!!) - and am posting here 'just for the record'! :-
"I appreciate your message on this post but quite honestly it seems to me that when women (and I mean actual female women who can give birth/be mums) are under attack, then language becomes immoderate and uncivil for a reason!
I think that what we are witnessing is more and more women reaching 'peak-trans' and realising the full implications of all this nonsense - which is now filtering into schools and workplaces.
I do feel for you in trying to maintain respectful discourse on this matter - but all this pronouns/new language and meanings is completely nonsensical and needs to be challenged. I hope that you will protect womens' right and ability to discuss these issues on MN by rooting out transactivist interlopers who stir-up feelings and target commenters to get them 'silenced'."

What a pathetic nonresponse from mnhq. It's clear that indulging autogynophiles, mras and the plain delusional is given priority over the rights of women, girls, and especially lesbians.

Sweet Jesus

I hadn't read all the article quoted above. It continues,

Yes, the female body and anatomy needs to be de-stigmatised, but even more (article's bold) so does the anatomy of trans people. This could potentially be done with educational events discussing the diversity of genitalia, which would be far more relevant and welcoming

And there you have it

Facebook link, please.

Discussing the "Diversity of genitalia". And who wouldn't want to?

I also think Blistory is right. It's no easy thing standing up against this - the threat of doxxing is often held up. Well those at MNHQ don't need to be doxxed, do they. And already Justine has had a scary RL experience at her home.If it was me...? My sense of security, safety, my mortgage, my home and family...? I don't think I would stick my neck out quite so far.

It is acceptable to me to call people like Jan Morris, our own Ego, Miranda Yardley 'she'.
And nobody is going to get banned for calling rapists etc 'he'. And we can continue to discuss and talk, let other people hear our views., The compromise is worth it, when you balance it out.

Thanks for the post Blistory. A new perspective to me.

I get what you're saying Blistory and TresDesolee, I recognise MNHQ are going out on a limb to allow these discussions at all and I was not entirely unhappy with their response. I'm pleased they seem to recognise that there are circumstances when referring to a trans person's sex is done not by accident, but not maliciously either, and that such posts will be considered individually in the context of the discussion.

I'm bored of discussions about pronouns, I wish they didn't matter. I wish it didn't matter if we just called everyone by their chosen pronouns, never mentioned their actual sex, humoured their beliefs about gender and whether they are men, women, non-binary etc. etc. Most of the time, in most situations it doesn't matter and I will happily use people's chosen pronouns. Why wouldn't I? I'm not an arsehole.

Sometimes it does matter though, generally when the transactivist agenda is negatively impacting women's safety and rights or children's health and wellbeing. Being 'Mumsnet', the vast majority of trans-related discussion is going to be around these topics because most of us are women and most of us have children, so this is going to be an issue from time to time. We're in a massive, tangled, ugly mess and women, children and trans people are being harmed. We need clear language and honesty if we're ever to sort this out.

I don't think the MN discussions have achieved nothing, I think they have been incredibly powerful for raising awareness of what's going on. Of course we need to be having these conversations in real life too, but how many more people will be having those RL conversations because of threads they have read on here? 800+ Spartacuses! A couple of years ago that thread would have had about 5 spartacus posts, 10 'you're a vile bigot' posts, then been deleted. 4 years ago I'd have written one of the 'you're a vile bigot' posts myself.

Really? so we should just shut the fuck up then? I don't bloody think so

Blistory , I agree with your posts.

It's not the women running Mumsnet who have got us into an anti-woman transgenderism crisis and they also can't fix it. It's a society-wide problem in Britain and many other countries. It is politicians who should be held to account for this situation. At several key milestones along the anti-women transactivists' path to power, politicians have squandered opportunities to say "wait a minute, let's really think about the implications" or say "so far and no further". When some over-influential anti-woman transactivists have shouted "jump!", politicians have meekly said ""how high?" while they throw women and girls under the bus. Politicians have decided that the requirement for being a woman must be lowered to "I feel like a woman" or "my body makes me feel unhappy".

Fortunately, more and more women are waking up to the harm caused to women and girls by simplistic and ill-informed legal changes approved by politicians, over the past 15 years or so, about who is a woman and why a woman is a woman.

The politicians made this mess so they should be made to fix it.

Marking place

Part of the internalised misogyny that all women need to recognise within themselves and work on, every day, is the message we've grown up with that we need to be nice. Stuff like we're expected to remember to add a 'not all men' if stating the fact that a man kills a woman every 2-3 days here in the UK. And it's this obsession that women must be nice behind this obscene pandering to misogyny, very real, active oppression and the denial of science that are inherent within trans ideology, activism and laws.

Like, HOW can basic science be offensive?!?!?! If someone suffers mental distress when confronted by facts then I feel sorry for their upset but ALL the onus lies with them in finding ways of coping with that. We don't tell women who've had hysterectomies that they will be able to carry a pregnancy, we don't tell terminally ill people that they're going to get better. To do that is not kind, it's not helpful, it's actually CRUEL. And it is also cruel to tell people that they can be another sex. Leaving aside all the other implications of saying someone can change sex, it is cruel, infantilising and unfair to tell people that something which is scientifically impossible can be done for them. That's not easing their distress, or supporting them in doing the long, hard work required to come to terms with whatever long-seated issues have led them to feel the way they feel. It's just palming them off, getting rid of them. It's insulting them. It's the opposite of caring.

MNHQ you have got this stuff ass-backwards. The TRUE, REAL insult and offence lies in demanding that women deny scientific fact, pretend lies and impossible notions are truths just to pander to the delusions and issues of a tiny, tiny minority of people. It lies in demanding that women accept hideously offensive, insulting, untrue lies and stereotypes about what a woman is, who can be a woman and so on. It demands that we demean ourselves to make men feel better.

This is a website predominantly for mothers - women for whom the reality of biology is more real than for any other person. If you want women to deny biological reality and the oppression that exists precisely because women have reproductive capacities, you make a mockery of the very thing you are meant to be.

No other movement demands or requires that science be denied, that another group is sacrificed to win rights for itself. The civil rights movement didn't and doesn't require lies and denial of science to fight racism. Disabled people don't need to endanger, insult and oppress gays and lesbians to fight for their rights. Do you not see, MNHQ, where the 'right side of history' actually lies? Every other group relies on truth to win rights and equality, the trans movement can only exist if everyone pretends to agree with fallacies.

Ack. I don't know. It just seems like pronouns are getting the biggest share of the discussion. I get it's a point of principle. But sometimes pragmatism gets more shit done. It would be great to say Right, pronouns aside for now, what are we going to do about This Particular RL Issue.
I do get the language points. But nothing will ever get solved until we get passed pronouns and cis, and we will never 'get passed' them, just come to some uneasy, suspicious truce.

But WHO is pushing this agenda? There are some powerful people pushing it otherwise the politicians would take no notice.

Who are the 'over influential trans activists' and who is giving them the power? It doesn't just happen that people have power by shouting loud. Look at this women re this issue; not doing us much good is it?

I do get the argument re being doxxed etc. But it has to being addressed in some way. What do we do?

I'm conflicted on this. Go Mumsnet for allowing debate even if it's bloody difficult in current climate! Go pp for shouting that we should be able to talk about biological truth and not be censored!

I have a gender-questioning daughter and am terrified by pretty much all websites (apart from 4thwavenow et al but they're not exactly household names are they?) at the moment. I totally disagree with Mn about the importance of keeping this discussion going for the sake of parents of transitioning children etc - they are well-served all over the internet and by every mainstream media outlet going - endless applause for the brave "accepting and loving" parents. It's us unaccepting parents that need this site to stay discussing trans issues instead of it just happening in Fb groups - those of us who are a bit uneasy about the idea that a four year old saying she's a boy needs to be agreed with and really need someone on side. If it hadn't been for people on MN saying things I felt in my private heart out loud I wouldn't be able to have these conversations in real life, I'd be too scared.

And that's why I think we need to follow Mn's rules here. I'll try my best to stick to them. I hope everyone else stays too.

Blistory I agree. Mumsnet has been my haven for the last 4 years. A place where an alternative view could be expressed on trans issues. If all it takes is no deliberate misgendering to keep our voices heard, that's a small price to pay.

When my daughter first came out as transgender there was not much on the internet from a different point of view. There were a few blogs written by people who had detransitioned who had been hounded by the trans community. Parents, like me, who didn't believe their child could suddenly become trans were accused of child abuse. I've had to hold my tongue when speaking to clinicians with my daughter as my views would automatically label me as hostile towards my daughter and she would need protecting from me.

In real life I'm very cautious who I talk to about these issues. There are some brave parents in my position who are out there now, but I could never want to expose my daughter in that way. That makes me cross, cross that we're scared to say our truth. The dissenting voices have been getting louder on Mumsnet and it's been wonderful to see. So many posters have had their eyes opened to the recent trans ideology by others on here and I want more.

Brilliant post.

No one thinks it's seriously mumsnet's fault we are in this mess. They're just hugely frustrated by the general media attitude of either uncritically pandering to the misogynists or burying their heads in the sand hoping people will STFU about it. And yes, mumsnet is better than most but it has its part to play. As a largely female-centric website it needs to recognise that women are also discriminated against. And yes, when you are making money out of women's desire to discuss women's issues, sometimes that should involve accepting the risks that exist today of challenging misogyny.