MNHQ, please could you explain why nobody has looked at the thread and taken action

[Lottielou7]

About the terrorist attack in Nice?

There are some very unpleasant, racist and anti Islam posts on there which will do damage to the community of MN and cause more problems in the face of such a tragedy. I do not think many of them should be allowed to stand.

I've not had any responses to my emails about the thread.

i don't feel that it shouldn't be discussed but any kind of extremism is always about the disordered people themselves and not because of, or the fault of a religion, a culture, an ideology or anything else. Some of the people on the other thread were deliberately posting very offensive views which will upset many of the MN community. This absolutely makes me mad - why should innocent people be made to feel that they have to leave MN and made to feel hounded at what is a very difficult time in the uk right now.

The mass murderer who said that he killed people in the name of God - I very much doubt his actions were engendered by religion, do you? You will say ISIS a more widespread issue generally - yes it is. But at the root of the problem is people filled with unimaginable rage. Their actions have nothing to do with religion, as much as they may try to kid themselves otherwise,

I think his actions were engendered by his religion ifyswim.

As you say, ISIS is on a much bigger scale. And added to that, it isn't just about ISIS. It's about pretty much the whole of the Middle East, the Arab Spring, Bush and Blair, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey.

I think alot of what people hear frightens them. That's why discussion is so important. Fear is the most dangerous of all human emotions. The best way to conquer fear is learning. You seem to be in a good position to help with that.

Their actions have nothing to do with religion

Theirs isn't religion, it's Politicised religion. I think that is the key.

Hownotto - As far as I'm aware Yazidi's are not Muslim.

I'm with Hownotto on this, you can shout until you're blue in the face Lottie, that these people have nothing to do with Islam, but it's not true is it? They are affiliated to a brand of politicised Islam, Wahabbism for the main part, which is a pernicious Islamic creed propagated and promoted by the Sauds, but is most certainly Islamic in nature and name.

You could also shout about how the Crusaders were fuck all to do with Christianity, but I think they'd disagree with you...

And yes, shutting down discussion is extremely dangerous, given the times we live in, we have to be able to talk about these things openly and honestly. Anything else is foolishness bordering on insanity.

Blossom - I don't think it's that clear cut, that was kind of my point.
They were heavily influenced by Sufism many centuries ago, which is another branch of Islam, a more spiritual branch.
I think it's also been claimed they were originally Muslim but branched off and so are deemed heretic and therefore persecuted.

Even so I don't believe they would identify themselves as Muslim.

Ok Blossom, I shouldn't have said Yazidi are Muslim. I would strike it from my post if I could.

Talking about things openly and trying to tackle very difficult issues is entirely different from continually using words like 'indigenous' 'dna' 'white people' 'the racist card' 'they, them' and spouting inflammatory rubbish like people whose ancestors are from Pakistan don't identify with being British.

That thread reads mostly like a political broadcast from the BNP and certainly has no enlightened or helpful points to add to the discussion or to try to make anything better. There are many divisive comments deliberately constructed to cause upset, jeer at and point score. There is not a shred of concern for anyone who might be reading them.

Debating the very huge problem of ISIS is necessary. But hate speech masqueraded as helpful debate is revolting. And I think we should show respect and concern for others on this forum feeling vulnerable right now.

I agree Lottie I think I've missed some of the worst as I've been dipping in and out and MN do seem to be deleting posts.

I also think that part if the problem is that everyone is feeling vulnerable right now. Which often doesn't bring out the best in people, unfortunately.

Ok, Lottie agreed, that kind of language is inflammatory, unhelpful and yes, repulsive. As with Hownot, I too missed those posts. So it would seem HQ was on the ball with the deletions.

I still think the thread should stand though, I think that even comments like that should stand so they can be dissected and discussed in an intelligent and measured way, I feel very uncomfortable about any kind of censorship no matter how repulsive the views espoused, I do think disabling and silencing these people often fuels the flames. Say what you have to say and let's discuss it, don't pretend people don't feel like that by deleting it, it won't stop them feeling like that, it will only add to their feelings of grievance.

Show them for the ridiculous fools they are, and I say this about all speech, all 'hate' speech, don't hide it, challenge it. I do think the only way we'll ever get anywhere is with an open discourse.

Hate speech is illegal though isn't it? So whilst I agree with you in many ways, my main concern is that those comments have caused a lot of hurt to people who now feel that they can't use mumsnet anymore

I agree that censorship only hides ugly views so you can't challenge them. But the main perpetrators were GFs who had no interest in considering that maybe they were unreasonable.

This whole thing reminds me of a thread about the BNP years ago which got me equally irate.

I read through the thread last night - posts have been deleted, I can't see any hate speech in what is left? It's a discussion with differing opinions.

The problem is, rumbling that many of those comments were left up for about 12 hours. The damage is done :(

These kind of comments have been on the site pre referendum, going back to the Cologne attacks. I think Mumsnet have found it difficult to handle. There is something to be said for those views being openly challeged but I have wondered many times if it crosses over into hate speech. The vehemence you get for challenging those views is awful.

Some on the thread were calling it discussion, but a lot of it really wasn't.

Laila, I am sad to see you go.

I think Mumset must accept that the site has become an unpleasant place for Muslims. Time to address that.

Agreed, Emily. Something needs to be done to address this generally.

Rumbling well the hate speech was obviously deleted then eventually. I mentioned hate speech long before you read it

Sadly Lottie, there may be quite a few that are long term posters posting horrible things. I used to think there were people joining to be inflammatory. It probably does happen, but I think there are many long term posters that have very dodgy views.

A number of posts have been deleted now, but there are still horrible posts up, such as those which state that Muslims don't want to integrate or be 'British.'

Discussion has to be balanced with consideration of peoples' feelings.

Free speech and debate is what makes our society bloody great.

We cannot get to the point when we block censor commentary - we give up the opportunity to engage and debate views.

We are free to debate, to discuss and speak freely and this is a luxury that a lot if people do not have.

Some people do post bollocks just to be inflammatory - but there are also some very intelligent, knowledgeable and very eloquent posters in our little mn community who are able to challenge, debate and helpfully educate some of the posters who gave ignorant, uneducated or plain old dumb ass ideas.

And yes, there are some posts up ie people not integrating - but that is also a bugbear of some of my Muslim relatives. So who do we delete? How can we choose?

It was a blanket statement about how 'they' don't want to integrate. Not discussion, just someone wanting to air their nasty views.

The post saying that I view those killed as 'collateral damage' is still up. Mumsnet think it's fine. That's 'debate' is it? That I don't give a shit about people dying because I posted in support of refugees in other threads? Is that acceptable discussion?

Free speech is good, unbridled hate isn't.

The pile on you get from a lot of posters and the stomach turning vehemence puts a lot of people off posting anyway, making 'free speech' on here really dificult. A lot of people just end up put off posting or drive off the site.

Absolutely - you can't debate with shit.

But a blanket statement can be challenged and hopefully make the poster think about what they actually believe, and think before they post in such dailymailourtage terms.

There are people on here who seem to track posters or look up their posts to twist what they say. I think it's some sort of hobby. Report the buggers as they are adding zilch to the thread. Sorry you've been on the receiving end. It derails threads and must be fucking horrible for you.

I am glad people have challenged them on a lot of points.

I just feel sad that posters like Laila feel driven away.