Pronouns

[VincentVanLowe]

Can mumsnet please clarify, will posts be deleted if they do not use a person's 'preferred pronouns'?

The idea that people can choose their pronouns is very new and specific to the ideology of transgender activists in English speaking Western culture. I do not share this ideology and I use pronouns in the generally accepted, historically consistent, biologically accurate way. As far as I am aware it is not illegal to use pronouns this way, and certainly the general population, medical doctors, academics and other groups continue to use pronouns in the usual way rather than in the way currently popular amongst trans activists and tumblr bloggers. So - is it acceptable for us to choose not to use 'preferred pronouns' if it conflicts with our own ethical frameworks?

Many thanks.

So can we misgender people based purely on their moral acceptability?

I'm going to start bursting in to tears if people don't refer to me as "Your Highness".

Its already been said so im gonna say it again anyway.

In saying we want to be able to accurately discuss people, i dont think anybody means they will deliberately call the transwomen mners "he" just for the sake of being correct. Nobody here is cruel.
But when we ae discussing the nus position, jenner or this murderer bloke here ^ we want to be able to tell the truth. Not have to pretend that we buy into their delusions.

To me, it is comparable with there being a rule (or more extreme, a law) saying that it is offensive to state you do not believe in god, so all atheist posters must from now on claim they do believe, and reinforce this stance in each post.

I'm not sure how you can make that claim. Gender dysphoria is a recognised condition, with resources and treatment available to support those who want it.

Yes, gender dysphoria IS a recognised condition. The 'dysphoria' part refers to the patient believing themselves to be a sex which they are not.
Body dysmorphia is very similar. It's when a person believes things about their body which are not true.

One is treated with counselling and support to help them view their body correctly.
One is treated with artificial hormones and mutilating and amputating healthy body parts.
Which seems more sensible and humane? I know what I think.

But leaving that aside, most trans people do not believe they have gender dysmorphia. They just are women, you see, and we all have to just suck it up and let them and their penises into the changing rooms with our daughters and into our rape crisis centres, and take our hard won resources and remove our hard won rights.

The reason they get away with this is not because they're ill/harmless/actually are women.
It's because they're men. Men, entitled men, who have grown up with male privilege in a world where men are in charge, and women must be accommodating. For many it is a fetish, and for many it is a control thing. For some, it is genuine mental health issues, which must be very difficult to deal with.

But the fact remains that they get away with it because they are men oppressing women. It's been the same throughout history. If Rachel Dolezal had been male, it would have most likely been a different story.

The thing I find troubling about transgenderism is that unlike with other minority groups, there is no desire to be themselves openly and proudly. Rather we're expected to play along with the pretence that because an individual feels like the opposite sex because to do otherwise is bigoted.

I can't get behind this notion and support it.

Exactly alis.

I'm all for minorities. I would fully support and help any campaign for more trans rights.

But I CANNOT support them stealing ours. It's absurd. And rude.

For many it is a fetish, and for many it is a control thing.

Do you have any sources for that Thomas?

There are hundreds, if not thousands of sources online. Search autogynephilia.
The control aspect is fairly obvious, many do it because they resent women having their own spaces.
Again, many, many sources online.

I think it might be quite fun to 'try out' being a bloke for a day or two. I think I could get away with it if I cut my hair and just wore my normal clothes/boots/whatever. And did my normal activities, which include tree felling, decorating, glazing, using power tools, laying paths...that's just in the last week. All unisex activities, but people often perceive them as male things to do. I could get away with pretending to be a man.

In fact I may get used to it, 'being' male.

It would also be quite interesting and exciting to be called 'he' by other people (not in a sex way, just normal exciting)

I like pretending to be someone I'm not. In my head, I do that sometimes.

Would I demand to be allowed into male spaces, to be called 'he' permanently, to be recognised legally as a bloke?

No, I bloody well wouldn't because that would be delusional, narcissistic and fucking stupid. As well as disrespectful to all the REAL blokes. I've never gone through my voice breaking, or growing facial hair and learning to shave it without injury, never been beaten up by other blokes for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, never had to worry about a hard-on in a science lesson. Never worried about testicular cancer or anything like that.

I've never had to worry about asking girls out, or being accused of rape when I didn't do it. I've never been picked on for looking effeminate.

So no, I'm not a bloke, and would never, ever presume to claim that I am.

Why can't I expect the same consideration from these people?

Because you're not a man. In a nutshell.

Well yes.

I am genuinely confused by this. My 'protected characteristic' disables me from saying something I know to be untrue. I cannot refer to a man as 'she' because it's a lie and I can't lie. But I don't want to be rude or act unlawfully so I've been using the name of the person instead of a pronoun or 'they' when it cannot be avoided.

But after reading some of the posts on this thread I'm a bit worried. I thought I was doing ok by avoiding the rejected pronoun but it seems that this isn't good enough because I'm still not using the 'preferred pronoun'. Is this correct?

The thing is though Hennifer you don't have gender dysphoria so you're never going to understand this.

And there are plenty of places where if you showed up and said you identified as male people would respect that.

Ugh As a woman, how can I distinguish between a man who has gender dysmophia and a man who is a sexual predator?

When I am in a state of undress in a changing rooms, how to I know if the person with a penis standing next to me is there because they are in denial about their own physiology, or for sexual gratification?

And there are plenty of places where if you showed up and said you identified as male people would respect that.

Golf club?

Eton?

Harrow?

Round Table?

MRA?

Prostrate clinic?

Interview for CEO (or any management position)?

Yep, they'd all accept me no probs if I identified as a man.

Oh wait........

But surely if I reported it the law would be changed so they'd be forced to admit me..?

Oh wait........

That wasn't my point. I wouldn't do it in the first place, because I'm not a fucking bloke. And to presume to claim to be one would be rude, stupid and wrong.

What's so hard to grasp about that? Are you saying that men don't deserve to be treated with respect in this sense - that their genuine experience as male isn't worth anything?