Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

We've been asked (in advance of primary school places allocation announcements in England, Wales and NI next week) for MNers' thoughts on the current systems for allocating primary places - so as ever we thought we'd come to you for your insights.

What do you think about how your LA allocates places? Have you found the process stressful? Do you think the difficulty/stress varies widely across the nation - and if so, which locations are particularly difficult and which are relatively stress-free? If you're in Scotland, where the system is different, do you think it works well (or not?) Would you support a change to the allocation system - and if so, how would you like to see it changed?

Any thoughts welcome. Best of luck to anyone waiting to hear about their child's place.

Sorry, still don't get it Archery. Somebody (perhaps you) had said they hadn't seen the issue anywhere else, yet it's been featured prominently by every major paper etc recently, so yes I do find it AirPrint that somebody up on current affairs could make such s claim.

Ready for a debate on Iran whenever you like (again not really quite sure what your point is in this and not going to strain any harder to work it out as have better things to do.) Start a thread. Hope it's ok if I bring along opinions informed by a little bit of reading the newspapers etc.

Hear hear Motherofdragons!

summerborn children are the ONLY group of children who can't access ANY of reception after compulsory school age.

What is the point in legislating a compulsory school age if you can't begin in reception at compulsory school age? Every other child can access reception at compulsory school age; summerborns can't.

Absolute rubbish.

Any child born from April onwards can't start at compulsory school age and access reception automatically. That is 5/12ths of the birth dates in a year.

No child can start school at compulsory school age and access all of reception automatically.

All this talk of CSA and disadvantaging your children is just a misdirection of the main point. You think your 4 year old is too young to start school and should start reception at 5. FINE. But campaign for a change to the school starting age rather than fixating on a campaign to help a privileged few kids with summer birthdays (and stuff the most vulnerable summerborns. They can just sink or swim in a system you've just made more difficult for them).

Now please tell me that my sb child with no developmental delays who starts reception at compulsory school age does not need any time in reception! I am a foreigner with no understanding of what phonics is. Do I hire a y1 tutor?

Expectations at end of reception...
Literacy – Reading Early Learning Goals

Children read and understand simple sentences.

They use phonic knowledge to decode regular words and read them aloud accurately.

They also read some common irregular words.

They demonstrate understanding when talking with others about what they have read.

Literacy – Writing Early Learning Goals

Children use their phonic knowledge to write words in ways which match their spoken sounds.

They also write some irregular common words.

They write simple sentences which can be read by themselves and others.

Some words are spelt correctly and others are phonetically plausible.

Mathematics – Number Early Learning Goals

Children count reliably with numbers from one to 20, place them in order and say which number is one more or one less than a given number.

Using quantities and objects, they add and subtract two single-digit numbers and count on or back to find the answer.

They solve problems, including doubling, halving and sharing.

..........

Selfishly, I don't want lots of TAs taken up with advanced reading for children who are much older (and if your parent is pushy enough to organise deferal of a child that is merely young, no other issues, they are pushy enough to insist their child is stretched!) when mine needs those staff just to have equal access to what the class is doing.

Tewi, would you prefer TAs to dedicate their time to children misdiagnosed with SEN and that if allowed to defer entry would actually free TAs time for your child?

Sorry, not "reception" but "school" at CSA... Wishful thinking galore

Now please tell me that my sb child with no developmental delays who starts reception at compulsory school age does not need any time in reception! I am a foreigner with no understanding of what phonics is. Do I hire a y1 tutor?

The point is that focusing on compulsory school age is a misdirection. It isn't the age children start school in this country. It's a long stop date.

What you are saying is that children should start school later. You want your child to start at 5. Fine. Campaign for that. Not a campaign which, as has been pointed out, looks progressive but is in fact regressive.

If you want parental input and flexibility, again, great. Ice and I discussed that earlier in the thread. It would be doable if enough parents demanded it and enough money was allocated. Again, why should we instead focus on a campaign that just helps privileged summerborns (and makes things worse for vulnerable 4 year olds).

myrtlehh you keep repeating things that you have no evidence for.

I'm not at all bothered if my DS is in a small group with other children who need extra practice at phonics and help concentrating. That wouldn't cause any issues at all.

Then let's change The Law on CSA from term after 5 to September when 4 and be done with it.

Don't you understand that there are laws in this country?

Well Tewi, you say TAs would be busy looking after the older kids to challenge and stretch them. What is your evidence?

Yes, I do understand that there are laws .

This particular law is a long stop date.

If you want a system where every child starts after their 5th birthday, campaign for that. Though, of course, you will have to address how you deal with the fact that there is a hard deadline at the end of schooling of annual exams, so either there will have to be multiple exam dates or someone will have to lose some time somewhere.

Any child born from April onwards can't start at compulsory school age and access reception automatically. That is 5/12ths of the birth dates in a year

A summerborn child, as defined in legislation is *April 1st - August 31st
*

So that is why summerborn campaigners are campaigning. So that group of children, the ONLY group of children who can't access ANY of reception at compulsory school age, can.

So no, not absolute rubbish at all.

I also campaign for the toomuchtoosoon campaign and am very much behind a later school starting age, I'm with you on that one.

If like you say we are stuffing the most vulnerable summerborns by what we are campaigning for eg. A later start (technically on time) for ALL summerborns, at compulsory school age in reception. Wouldn't campaigning for a later school start in general (with your way of thinking) also disadvantage vulnerable summerborns, it's the same thing...starting at a later age! You contradict yourself.

If the government, the DfE made it easier for all summerborn parents it wouldn't be an issue.

I think we all agree a later formal school start would benefit all children.

Coming back to the OP, admissions authorities and the admissions process is very very difficult for everyone, extremely difficult for parents of summerborns wanting to start their children at compulsory school age.

Aren't a fair number of the stats about academic differences from a time when younger children were obliged to start reception later and thereby had 1-2 terms fewer of schooling before the differences were observed?

I don't need any evidence of probably hypotheticals! You DO need evidence if you are claiming certain things definitely happen because of the system now. It's been explained why your interpretation is wrong but you don't seem interested in that -

Maybe I am wrong about what would happen, but it's perfectly reasonable of me to refuse to get behind something that I think would be negative for children with SN, when there are other options that would make things fairer for all children not just a few summerborns with pushy parents.

Rdutton, 5/12 of the year is too much for flexibility in the current schooling environment; it would make school planning impossible.

Campaign for the youngest in the year to be 4 by 31/3 before they start ie a 4.5 minimum starting age would be fine.

summerborn is not a defined term at all (though summer born is). All those talking about summerborns are talking as if they are the youngest children in the year, the statistics linked to by another poster were comparing August and September birthdays (not basically half the year to the other half).

If you meant that my April baby should be able to start in reception at nearly 5.5 just on parental say so I think that's even more socially regressive.

You can call pushy all you want, but every parent in their right state of mind would not want their children to be misdiagnosed. If pushing is what it takes, so be it.
Also, you are the one completely ignoring all the hard evidence that several studies have found on summerborns. You ignire that this campaign did not start just because of a crazy parent idea, but because it is PROVEN beyond doubt that summerborns are at disadvantage and discriminated against.
You might want to read some of the tons of research available before bulldozing your unsubstantiated opinions. Until then, I've got nothing more to say to you.

TeWi Is the term "pushy parent" directed at me?

Hi myrtle

Was that research done on a cohort that had equal number of terms of education?

And if summer borns started later, would the cohort then just reverse so winter borns did statistically worse, being now the younger in the class?

myrtlehh - Do you want to respond to my point that you've totally misrepresented the stats on SEN? Did you misunderstand when you said "Not 1, not 10, but 90%!!! That's nearly all of them!!!". And you are just comparing August to September, yes?

Clearly there is an issue with higher SEN diagnosis in children young for their year, probably related (as has been pointed out) to measurement and expectation. But if you want to quote statistics, do so accurately.

Also, the most likely children to be diagnosed with SEN are the poor and disadvantaged. Just the children least likely to defer on parental choice.

And if summer borns are being wrongly diagnosed with SENs, isn't that a case for better diagnosis criteria more than anything? (just as autism and heart attacks are typically under diagnosed in girls/women)

DfE Month of Birth and Education

It's aimed at anyone who thinks it's fair to give their child a substantial advantage to the disadvantage of other children. Does that apply to you? I don't know.

Making things better for all children is brilliant and I will always be behind that. I'm aware that summer born children do have a disadvantage and a solution that helps them and causes no significant disadvantage to others like raising the start age for all children is fine.

Making things better for a small number of children because it suits your child, even though it makes things worse for children with disadvantaged backgrounds or pushes the problem onto children with a different birth date is the very definition of pushy.

Sorry haven't read the whole thread. I disagree with families moving some distance away but keeping their siblings priority for subsequent kids. IMO there should be a reasonable cut off say two miles over which if you moved away you lose the ability to gain spaces over another family who may live much closer but don't already have a sibling in school. Also if you actually move out of borough the sibling priority should not apply.

TeWi the question for you then is following. If I want my child to start school at compulsory school age, is it fair in your mind that she has to go to Y1 directly and be expected the following, having not spend a single day at school?

• read and understand simple sentences.

• use phonic knowledge to decode regular words and read them aloud accurately.

• read some common irregular words.

• demonstrate understanding when talking with others about what they have read.

• use their phonic knowledge to write words in ways which match their spoken sounds.

• write some irregular common words.

• write simple sentences which can be read by themselves and others.

• count reliably with numbers from one to 20, place them in order and say which number is one more or one less than a given number.

• they add and subtract two single-digit numbers and count on or back to find the answer.

• solve problems, including doubling, halving and sharing.

..........

So, should she go straight to Y1?? I am not "pushy" for not wanting her to.