Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

We've been asked (in advance of primary school places allocation announcements in England, Wales and NI next week) for MNers' thoughts on the current systems for allocating primary places - so as ever we thought we'd come to you for your insights.

What do you think about how your LA allocates places? Have you found the process stressful? Do you think the difficulty/stress varies widely across the nation - and if so, which locations are particularly difficult and which are relatively stress-free? If you're in Scotland, where the system is different, do you think it works well (or not?) Would you support a change to the allocation system - and if so, how would you like to see it changed?

Any thoughts welcome. Best of luck to anyone waiting to hear about their child's place.

Jassy
You obviously need to read the full thread, there were plenty I posters stating that Catholic schools were full of the white MC.
That is where the discussion started with me asking for proof of this.
I am aware that there are less children who take up FSM in catholic schools, would you like the school to turn to people who work and say "look it would easier if you didn't work, that way we wouldn't look as if we were discriminating"
As to your Sikh friends, I would suggest they talk to their religious leaders about the option of having schools built.
The state did not commission or build the Catholic Schools. The religious leaders in the Catholic Faith, purchased the land and commissioned the building of the schools many years ago.

Our rural village has a VA CofE primary. We attend church and kids go to Sunday school. We haven't played the faith card to apply for a place because as a Christian I disagree with faith priority in admissions. There is only one other family in the village who sends their child to Sunday school. All the other children (who are nearly all ages 3-5) come from surrounding villages so they can queue jump in primary admissions. My DH and I call them 'the doughnut kids'. Their parents hang out at local coffee shops rather than go to the church service and we won't see them again once the kid turns 5. Sadly this is the state of Anglicanism today.

Ahh so you are not at all discriminatory yourself Sweetie but your answer to what Sikh's should do is to build their own school for there own kind?

Very nice.

How about if a school takes any money from the state then you follow the same legislation that the education establishment I work for (a university) follows ie: no discrimination on any grounds for any reason?

The religious leaders in the Catholic Faith, purchased the land and commissioned the building of the schools many years ago.

They don't pay to run them though - the taxpayer does.

I find it very disturbing that if I were going to start a free school for white, catholic girls, the only part anyone would have official beef with is the 'white'.

Why is that? Why can't one segregate a school by race but one can segregate a school by religion?

Maybe sweetie could answer whether if a school was built by an entirely white community it should be able to limit its intake to white kids...and then tell any non-white kids nearby that they should look into building their own school?

Or if NHS hospitals only admitted Christians, should all the non-Christians go and 'build themselves' their own hospital?

Sweetie, you had a go at me for not providing data to prove that Catholic schools are full of white MC children. Given I'd never asserted they were, it's unreasonable to expect me to provide data to support the idea.

I'd be perfectly happy for any faith (you'll note I've never said this is a uniquely Catholic issue, at least the Catholic Church is honest about its discriminatory goals) to fund education for its adherents. Unfortunately it doesn't as they have managed the coup of getting the state to fund it for them. Well played, faith schools.

It would be a disgustingly wasteful use of state funds, let alone Furthet entrenching religious and state segregation, for the state to fund schools that reflect the faith makeup of local areas. Who's going to build the schools for the atheist kids under your model, out of interest?

You know that plenty of people on FSM work, right? However, the point is that faith selecting schools (NB again: not all faith schools) cream off the more privileged, meaning the non-selective schools support a greater proportion of FSM/EAL pupils.

Wafting just as a matter of interest most faith schools are voluntary aided. Therefore I pay my taxes, I pay a sum to the school annually and because I attend church part of the money that I contribute also goes to the local catholic school. How much more would you like me to contribute

If the church school has voluntary aided status then they will contribute up to 10% of capital costs for renovations. They pay nothing towards current costs of running school. Or they can become an academy and control the school without paying a penny!

Muskey - paying money to your church/school is of course your choice, but it's really not going very far towards funding faith schools in general.

From www.secularism.org.uk/types-of-school.html

Voluntary Aided schools (VA)
A voluntary aided school is a state-funded school in which a religious foundation or trust owns the school buildings. All running costs and at least 90% of building costs are funded by central government via the local authority. The religious foundation contributes the remaining 10% of capital costs.
The governing body determines the school's admission arrangements in consultation with the local authority. VA schools can discriminate against all pupils on religious grounds if oversubscribed.
The governing body employs the staff and can apply a religious test in appointing, remunerating and promoting all teachers. It may also apply a religious test to non-teaching staff if a 'genuine occupational requirement' can be demonstrated. In addition, teachers can be disciplined or dismissed for conduct which is 'incompatible with the precepts of the school's religion.
Pupils at VA schools follow the National Curriculum. In religious education they are free to devise their own syllabus and only teach about their own religion.
VA schools are required to have a daily act of collective worship.

Muskey, there might be a case for churches to control places based on the proportion of funding (capital plus running costs) they actually put in? Assuming they don't care about socioeconomic or racial segregation, of course.

this FOI from the Accord Coalition gives the true picture of funding for VA schools in recent years. The churches are no longer required to contribute to capital costs, and where capital contributions are made, there isn't evidence that it comes from the church rather than parental fundraising.

Ice Being you have taken what I have said completely out of context, AcheryAnnie asked me what she should tell her Sikh Friends if they wanted a state funded school which followed their faith and what I did is explain what Catholics did many years ago.
I think you need to think about what you are saying, you have accused me of being discriminational when I simply answered a question. I am very offended by what you have put on here.

Nope, Sweetie, that was me. And that's not the question I asked.

...no I didn't, SweetieXPie.

As I have said a million times, I don't want any state faith schools. I have never been a big fan of religious apartheid.

If the existing church state schools are so self-reliant, how about we remove all state finding from them, then? If the congregations really want them, I'm sure they will make sure that they survive.

Apologies to you Jassy, the initial conversation if data started as the were a lot of posts stating that all catholic schools were white MC and I was simply stating this was not true.
I agree faith schools do have fewer children on FSM, I also agree the parents can be very pushy in faith schools but hey I assume if you were Catholic and had the outstanding Catholic School in your catchment, you would send your child there, obviously correct me if I am wrong.

What is it that you asked Jassy?

The state just plugged any gaps in the existing church school provisions so that's what we were left with.

Yes, but the state could very easily establish fairer rules for admissions (rather than moves in the last decade or so that have increased inequality).

The fact that it's not the most 'faithful' who necessarily benefit from religious discrimination surely makes it even more ridiculous that faith is used as a criteria at all?

Sure, there's no perfect and fair system for allocating places at oversubscribed schools. But to use faith-based discrimination - when it wouldn't be allowed in accessing any other public services - doesn't help.

You are right ArcheryAnnie they wouldn't survive, the church would have no choice by to sell the land to the highest bidder (no doubt a developer) more properties would be built. All of the children that would have attended that school would have no school to go to, you would have even more of a crisis on your hands!

Gosh, you keep referring people back to earlier in the thrwad, but here you go:

Why do your strong views on your child getting a Catholic education matter more than my Sikh friends' views on their children getting a Sikh education? Why should the state prioritise you over others?

Asking me what I'd do in a hypothetical situation is obviously hypothetical. I hope I'd do what I'm doing now - campaigning for a system that is fairer for all, and in particular for a system that is fairer to the least privileged children.

As I've said, I'm not trying to get my child into an 'outstanding' school. I'd like him to go to a local school so he can participate in his local community.

I could (just) afford to buy a flat close to a local school, live there for two years, then move out again so that my child and his gestating sibling could attend somewhere reasonably local. However, I'm not doing that as I think it's immoral and unfair - I would be contributing to the problem. I hope my principles would be upheld if I were of the 'right' faith; but I can't comment on the principles of the religious.

I think managed ballots are a pretty supportable admissions system.

Re the church-owned buildings, where did the church money originally come from?

You are right ArcheryAnnie they wouldn't survive, the church would have no choice by to sell the land to the highest bidder (no doubt a developer) more properties would be built.

That would require a change of use for the land in the planning system. Would councils be likely to do this if it made it more difficult for them to fulfil their statutory obligation to provide school places?