Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

We've been asked (in advance of primary school places allocation announcements in England, Wales and NI next week) for MNers' thoughts on the current systems for allocating primary places - so as ever we thought we'd come to you for your insights.

What do you think about how your LA allocates places? Have you found the process stressful? Do you think the difficulty/stress varies widely across the nation - and if so, which locations are particularly difficult and which are relatively stress-free? If you're in Scotland, where the system is different, do you think it works well (or not?) Would you support a change to the allocation system - and if so, how would you like to see it changed?

Any thoughts welcome. Best of luck to anyone waiting to hear about their child's place.

Except you still haven't answered the question of why a child of x faith should have far, far greater choice and provision than a child of y faith (or no faith).

There are statistics that are easy to find on the demographics of congregations and religious schools - the Campaign for Fair Admissions has some, and others are easy to find on Google. I've posted some on MN before - and I'll dig them out later, I'm not able to at the moment.

And yes, regular Mass attendance (generally at a church linked to th school) and pre-6 month baptism are 'hoops' that favour the better-organised and better-off, whatever you pretend. And CofE schools, which make up the majority of faith schools, tend to admit more kids under the non-faith criteria (though many are faith siblings) than the Catholic schools, but have even more MC intakes than Catholic schools as they put the emphasis on attendance/participation rather than baptism. That said, check out the Oratory's criteria...

Archery. I have 5 Catholic schools within a mile and a half of me. They have a total of 9 forms entry between them. City suburb.

The only people going on about 'bloody Catholics' (sic) on this thread, rather than faith admissions in general, are those defending Catholic admissions.

agree with pp about rural schools.

When we lived in a village, every single school in every single village for a radius of about 10 miles is C of E.

In a local town (5 miles away) there were non C of E schools. They were all very over subscribed and you wouldn't have got into them applying from 5 miles away in the village.

So while we had lots of choice, most of the village schools would have places, you have no choice over faith, it is C of E or nothing.

Sorry that should have said sweetiepie we have 5 RC schools in our close area. All are full. In a 5 mile radius we probably have 10.
I assume that if you think this could not happen, then you don't live in a city. It is also likely that you don't experience the same spaces crisis. I can hand on heart state that we have this many RC schools in our area. There are several CofE. There is one private Muslim school.

I really want to agree with something tiggy said up thread.

On the education boards, the big issues around admissions (which is what the original question was) are to do with distance, living in black hole, siblings v. children who live close, faith schools etc.

I am not saying there isn't an issue over summerborns and flexibility, but if MNHQ are going to go on TV to talk about the problems, then it shouldn't all be about summerborns, this thread has gone off on a massive tangent.

I agree steppingoneggs. the big issue for 16/4 is the first borns that can't get in a local school. The issue then is choice. Some of our CofEs are open to all and do take all - but if I was non Christian I am not sure I would want that either - they are still church schools. The 5 RC near us rarely take non RC unless exceptional circumstances. Lots of RC go to community schools or CofE.

Agree steppingoneggs

The 'black hole' stories are just terrible!

Someone asked why posters dissaprove of faith schools. I dissaprove because they exclude large parts of their local population based on the religion of the children's parents. By having faith schools non faith children get less choice and may have to travel past other schools to get to a school that they are eligible to apply for. Faith schools are a big part of why the admissions process is so ridiculous and stressful. Imagine how much easier it would be if children went to their local school based on distance. (I strongly dissaprove of grammars too)
Some of the criteria for getting into a faith school further excludes some children whose parents are actually religious but who are less organized or foreign. It's crazy that some people attend church just so their DC can get into a school.

My DC are adults now and were educated overseas so none of this nonsense effected us but I can see how stupid, archaic and, dare I say it, cruel the current system is.

ALL state schools should be non selective and secular.

I don't think anyone can really deny that in over subscribed urban areas the Christian Faith schools reduce the number of available community schools for everyone else. (and I mean of the magnitude of 400 applying for 90 places and even the RC schools getting 200 applicants for 60 places etc) . Why else is the term 'praise or pay' so widely used in for example, London

almostapril
It is actually worse in rural areas, see my post upthread.
In most villages you don't just drive past a closer faith school to a community school, there are no community schools, all village schools are pretty much C of E schools

ArcheryAnnie - if you look up thread you will see that I have said (as a Catholic) I can see the unfairness the non faith parents feel.
I also feel I must reiterate my point, the Catholic Schools are oversubscribed with catholic Children, so if you took the religious aspect out of all schools you will STILL be lacking in places. The issue is the lack of school places altogether.
The "jumping through hoops" you refer to, for us it is not jumping through hoops, we believe we should baptise our children as soon as possible after birth, so it is part of our beliefs.
I am not calling you a liar, I am just very surprised you have five catholic schools all within your school area, we have three that I know off but they are certainly not local, two are in different boroughs and are over 10 miles away.
I also raised this point as a lot of posters seem to be lumping CofE schools and Catholic Schools together, so I did think you could have been talking about 5 faith schools with a mix of Catholic and CofE.
I don't live in the back and beyond we do have issues with children getting into schools, there are a fair amount I schools, he issues are everyone applies for the schools that have outstanding OFSTEDs then are disappointed when they are offered the schools that are not soon so well.

Almost April - this is my point, even if the RC school you are referring to has the religious aspect taken away, you would still not have enough school places, therefore still be in the same position.
I have always said there needs to more schools built in line with the birth rates, rather than the government just not doing anything until it comes to the point where tons of children have no school place!

Yes we need more places overall. However those who can or are prepared to play a faith card are more likely to get a school within 0.5 miles. Those that really miss out are those near us who are over 0.4 away from all the community schools in any direction. They then get given what's left, often miles away.

Archery, the reason why I am not answering your crudely simplistic question is that I simply do not accept the terms you are setting in asking it.

1 - I do not accept that these things must be a zero sum game. I do not accept your basic premise that we accept scarcity, and allow that every faith school place must be a place that is somehow denied some other child who will be significantly inconvenienced or disadvantaged as a result.

1. I do not accept the axiom that "choice" is the good we should all be squabbling over. Unless it is somehow unsatisfactory and parents look for a replacement, every child only needs one school place. If there are eleventy billion muslim (or other faith) school places near you, and 30 secular ones at one school, who cares, if 30 is enough for the intake and it is in all respects a good school and serves the children? Banging on about how many faith schools there are, and therefore how much "choice" those children have, is missing the point. the point isn't that someone of faith can choose between 6 decent schools. the point is that someone without doesn't get anything decent or convenient at all.

I really belive that banging on about "choice" is pandering to the structures that have caused this mess.

"However those who can or are prepared to play a faith card "

this is very sad - is this what people really think that those who practice a religion are doing?

But removing the faith criteria for admission would at least mean that all children are treated equally, and all parents would be invested in creating a sensible and equitable education system. It will take time to build more provision, and that is not even on the cards at the moment. And in the meantime, around here if you are not Catholic you go to the back of the queue.

You can dress it up however you like, but that's still discrimination. You both, SweetieXPie and talkingofmichaelangelo, are using a lot of weasel words to defend discrimination. Why don't you just own it?

this is very sad - is this what people really think that those who practice a religion are doing?

There are two categories here:

1. Those who feign faith. The vicar of our local CofE church is very open about the fact they welcome those who turn up for 2 years for schools admissions, as it's bums on pews, plus some end up staying.

1. Those who think their children are entitled to greater choice and higher priority when it comes to getting a reasonably local education because they happen to be of the 'right' faith, and will argue until they are blue in the faith that this is entirely reasonable, and after all why should people of the wrong or no faith/church mind sending their child to a school miles away rather than in their local community?

We have a situation where children are driven in from miles away - often out of borough - to a certain church school, meaning local children don't get a look in at any of their local schools. How are the authorities supposed to plan for birth rates etc when faith based selection can distort catchments so badly?

We live about a mile from the county border and we have great schools. The problem is that the schools in the other county aren't so good.

Our admissions priority is.

Cared for
Sen
Siblings
Catchment
Non-catchment

This causes terrible problems when siblings get a place and live several miles away and families who live close to the school don't.

Where my DSIL lives they have a much fairer system. Their's is.

Cared for
Sen
Catchment siblings
Catchment
Non-catchment siblings
Non-catchment.

I think this should be the standard policy for all schools.

I agree with talking. Not everyone who attends a faith school is white mc with sharp elbows and playing some kind of cynical game. As per my post up thread no one except Catholics wanted to attend the faith school that I attended as a child (the building was paid for and built by the Catholic community where I lived even before the church was built perhaps an indication of how important people considered a catholic education to be).
The inherent problem with admissions is that people want to send their DC to the best school for their children regardless of its status. The fact that league tables have skewed people's perception as to what is the best school is the issue not that some dc are excluded a place in a school on the basis of whether their parents practise or say they practise a certain faith or not or as in Wales children are excluded from school places because they taught through the medium of Welsh and if you are not a Welsh speaker then you won't get a place (although in this instance people would be actively putting their English speaking children at a distinct disadvantage so perhaps the moral indignation is muted).

Not all the people who play the faith card do so without believing of course. But near us loads do. CofE Church in certain parishes for 2 years or RC baptism opens options that are otherwise shut. Loads of people openly admit that's what they did. Often they actually want multifaith schools but can't get in one close by. They use the faith card to get in a local school not miles away.

I feel that segregation by faith is every bit as immoral and damaging to society as segregation by race.

It is especially damaging in combination with children and education.

Muskey, my issue is entirely that my child is excluded from a place in any of our local schools because faith based selection has fucked up local catchments so badly. It's not about the 'best' school - check my posts on this thread and elsewhere about why faith selecting schools are wrongly perceived to be 'better' - it's about my child getting an education within a reasonable distance of where he lives, rather than a school miles away which will limit his participation in his school community, his local community, his time for homework, extra-curricular activities and family time. I know many, many parents in the same boat.

No one is saying that all children at schools selecting based on faith are middle class. However it's a fact that these schools are disproportionately more affluent and middle class than their notional communities, even more so than the CofE and Catholic congregations (the two religions that most faith schools are based on).

^^ JassyRadlett has it absolutely right, on all counts.