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MNHQ

Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

808 replies

RowanMumsnet · 08/04/2015 15:25

Hello

We've been asked (in advance of primary school places allocation announcements in England, Wales and NI next week) for MNers' thoughts on the current systems for allocating primary places - so as ever we thought we'd come to you for your insights.

What do you think about how your LA allocates places? Have you found the process stressful? Do you think the difficulty/stress varies widely across the nation - and if so, which locations are particularly difficult and which are relatively stress-free? If you're in Scotland, where the system is different, do you think it works well (or not?) Would you support a change to the allocation system - and if so, how would you like to see it changed?

Any thoughts welcome. Best of luck to anyone waiting to hear about their child's place.

OP posts:
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PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 09/04/2015 21:57

Tiggy - I tell a lie. I've just checked the website and they've started publishing it as of this year - going back to 2012. In 2012 I was told I'd need to do a FOI for the information. And last year they definitely didn't publish as I tried to look what had happened in our year out of interest.

SweetieXPie · 09/04/2015 22:09

ArcheryAnnie
At the beginning of this thread, (I appreciate this was many many comments ago) I did state that I can see how non faith parents feel that Catholic Schools are unfair.
My annoyance is that whenever this conversation comes up it is almost ALWAYS Catholic Schools that get dragged through the mud, no one ever seems to mention Jewish or Muslim schools that are state funded, no one ever seems to be in a big rush to state how unfair they are. That was my main point, although did want to point out that accepting 50% non faith children into a Catholic School just wouldn't work.
Also this stereotype that all Catholic Schools are full of the white MC is utter rubbish, so I wanted to inform these people (who obviously have never stepped foot in a Catholic Church or School) that this is simply not true.

Duckdeamon · 09/04/2015 22:19

I don't usually post on summer born admissions in threads in the education sections because in addition to the concerns about distance, faith schools and so on we have had to contend with an admissions maze with a different and unclear process and timescale and no small degree of scepticism and patronising Qs and "reassurance" from authorities and heads.

Parents wanting to delay entry to reception for a year are in the minority on MN: when it is raised there are a lot of anecdotes about DC who were or are fine in the usual year group, "someone has to be the youngest", denial of any evidence of problems for someof these DC, implied accusations of pushyness and so on.

in RL it's not something I talk about if can avoid it as get similar comments. although more subtle than MN where people don't pull their punches!

bemybebe · 09/04/2015 22:23

Well, guys, I think you, admissions boards regulars, will have to deal with a lot more summer born issues because since last year they are a lot more in the press... because everybody with children born in April-August are potentially affected and because the advice has changed twice since less than a year and the issue was a lot in the media.

I have a dd who will turn 3 in June and it is very close topic for us. Sorry for disturbing your cosy nest with only faith/siblings/whatever issues to deal with up to now.

Almostapril · 09/04/2015 22:25

Tiggy is right in that all the issues stem from shortage of places. Over subscription criteria that were rarely used before are now replied upon totally in some areas.
I am a regular on the education boards even if I name change. The summer born issue comes up occasionally but most seem to think that it's not a huge issue for most and reception is very very play based. It's about getting them ready for yr1
This thread does seem to have been taken over by the summer born campaigners. I stand by my previous comment. We are at a huge school. The summer borns do fine and often better than older classmates

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 09/04/2015 22:27

April to August? That is 5/12th of the year. Surely you don't think we should have half the year eligible for deferral.

bemybebe · 09/04/2015 22:29

The summer borns do fine and often better than older classmates

DfE "Education by the month of birth" report and IFS on summer born children and when to start school report contradict you Almostapril But who cares about research when you have your own anecdote, right?

Duckdeamon · 09/04/2015 22:29

There is so much beyond reception, year 1, SATs, GCSEs, and the evidence suggests otherwise almostapril.

bemybebe · 09/04/2015 22:31

Penguin different children will be affected to different degree, but yes, the law says that a child born in April comes of CSA on 31 August. it is the law.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 09/04/2015 22:34

I realise that. I have repeatedly made the point that that age is a long stop and not, as summer campaigners often talk, the age at which most children start. My point was simply that if deferral is an issue for half the year then the issue is not deferral.

Almostapril · 09/04/2015 22:35

The faith school issue is very relevant in oversubscribed urban areas. Those who don't live in it will never really understand the stress for everyone with their first child. The RC schools (a few) were always RC with the odd non RC child. All quite casual. Now you have to be in the correct parish and attend mass. Non RC don't have a chance as not all RC get in.
CofE used to be open to all. Not now - 2 years church attendance needed.
In our area that means your options are cut if you are not RC or CofE by 2/3 or 2/4 dependant on what road you are on.
Then you need to live within 0.3m to get in what's left.
After that - a school that is 2 miles away with no direct bus route.
Add in siblings that live miles away in cheaper areas as child one got in them they moved ...,

Almostapril · 09/04/2015 22:40

Btw yes I only have my own experience but maybe our school ( a national lead school etc) is just very good at dealing with summer borns. We have over 800 in school and it's never ever been mentioned as an issue. I am heavily involved in the parent body and it's never ever been mentioned as an issue. I only know one summer born who started a year later but that was due to SEN

bemybebe · 09/04/2015 22:42

Penguin I have mentioned it before, I have never heard of summer born issue up until last year, when I read about it in the newspapers and read IFS 2013 report on the subject. Because I am from a country where parents decide when to send their children to school and they can choose to send them in September between they are 6.5 yo and up until the day before they are 8yo, needless to say, being born in summer/winter/autumn etc is not an problem there. Shortage of places is not unique to England, sadly, but it is not a reason to deny the parents the choice.

ArcheryAnnie · 09/04/2015 22:43

SweetieXPie the reason I always talk about Catholic schools is because that's the case where I live, that Catholic schools dominate the state provision. I don't know any Muslim or Jewish state schools around here, but if they dominated the provision to the detriment of my child and other people's children, then I'd object to them, too.

If there was no Catholic provision near you, and only or mainly only Muslim state schools, to which your DCs weren't admitted unless they converted to Islam, I bet you'd be cross, too.

bemybebe · 09/04/2015 22:44

"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win." Nighty-night everyone Wink

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 09/04/2015 22:46

No I do agree on that. I would rather see informal learning to 6 ish (probably still in school, but less formal). The summer campaign is very nimby though. I respect your point earlier that it is hard to change the big issue so maybe hitching on to a pragmatic subset is smart. But I don't respect their argument that it is the issue.

tiggytape · 09/04/2015 22:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kareninthetardis · 09/04/2015 22:56

Thing is though, summer borns are seen by some as being disadvantaged because they are at the bottom of the age range, yes? Some are a year younger than the oldest in the class. So if you allow those kids to defer until next year, they will all be the oldest in their class. So the spring born kids, previously in the middle of the pack, will now be a year younger than the oldest in the class and seen to be at a disadvantage because some of the kids in the year have a whole extra year of maturity, learning etc on them. Where does it stop? Confused Someone has to be the youngest.

YonicScrewdriver · 09/04/2015 22:58

Thanks for link.

talkingofmichaelangelo · 09/04/2015 23:02

on faith schools -
those who are anti- them seem to include both atheists who wouldn't want their children to be educated within a faith, and atheists who think it is unfair that they can't send their children to be educated within a faith (as they don't meet the criteria). Seems like a couple of inconsistent positions - if it is ok for atheists to say "I choose this non-christian value system for my dcs' education" why is it not ok for christians to say "I choose this christian value system for my dcs' education"?

On meeting the criteria - it's easy. you can send your dc to a faith school if you want to, if you jump through the hoops. no one is going to put you on a lie detector and demand that you say the Creed. If you don't want to - because you want nothing to do with the whole thing, and / or despise what you see as hypocrisy - fine, I respect that. So - why is it a problem? that a whole bunch of other families have access to a school that you don't want to send your dcs to?

Essentially none of this would matter if there were enough places and parents felt more secure about the whole thing. this faith school thing is just one scape goaty thing to get knickers in a twist about while the whole system is riven with anxiety and inadequacy. And this nonsense about people feeling they have to move to get their child into a school. this is insane. Just think about it. "what was wrong with your old house?" "nothing really except it happened to be one of those that doesn't get state education." "oh right I see." WTF? How did we ever accept any of this?

WastingMyYoungYears · 09/04/2015 23:03

Yes, of course someone has to be the youngest, but only 4 years (and a few days) old is ridiculous - it's a lot younger than in lots of other countries.

SweetieXPie · 09/04/2015 23:04

Of course ArcheyAnnie, I can see the annoyance of not being able to access the local school as it is Catholic.
I wasn't actually aware that C of E schools had started insisting that you needed to be practising as I know they never used to be. This is interesting to know, I can certainly see how difficult it would be living in an area with C of E and Catholic schools.
I actually live in an area where there are Jewish Muslim and Catholic Schools together with plenty of non faith schools so there is plant of choice ( although of course everyone fights to get into the top performing non faith school)

threestars · 09/04/2015 23:05

One issue we came up against that I don't think has been mentioned here is the longevity of the waiting list.

DD did not get into the same school as DS, as we were just outside catchment, but we were advised that she was 2nd on the waiting list. Since I knew that one child in that year was actually going to a private school (although the parents decided to keep the place at the primary school open until their child was 5 just in case they didn't like the private school - agghhh! but that's another story), I was crossing my fingers that we might stand a chance at some point during the year that she would be able to transfer to her brother's school, provided nobody else her age moved into the catchment area.

What we didn't know, was that the waiting list only lasted until Christmas. The LA could not explain to us why, other than that it was inconvenient for their office staff to keep it open - although they did not say how.

What we ALSO did not know, was that you can't apply to the same school more than once in one year.

Therefore, if a place became unexpectedly available in January, we would no longer be on the waiting list for that space and would not be allowed to apply for that place until the following school year. However, anybody else no matter how far away they lived, no matter whether they had a sibling or not, WOULD be able to apply provided they had not already done so that school year.

Closing down the waiting list just does not make sense to me. The waiting list was moveable - a catchment area child would have gone straight to the top of the waiting list, so DD would not have denied a 'more local' child a place.

Perhaps MNHQ could suggest a waiting list should last the whole school year? Also, if a child has accepted a private school place, a state school place should not be held open for them on the basis but that they should reapply if they decide to move back to the state system

threestars · 09/04/2015 23:09

Although the private school thing was really just these particular parents exploiting the summer born/school age rules to allow for their indecision so I don't think that could be addressed, so ignore that last part!

ArcheryAnnie · 09/04/2015 23:11

talkingofmichaelangelo it isn't as easy as that.

On meeting the criteria - it's easy. you can send your dc to a faith school if you want to, if you jump through the hoops. no one is going to put you on a lie detector and demand that you say the Creed

This doesn't work if you:

  • already have a faith
  • don't want to teach your children it's ok to lie
or
  • if your kid is over six months old and it's a Catholic school you want them to get into. Baptism after six months is as useless as no baptism at all around here.

If you don't want to - because you want nothing to do with the whole thing, and / or despise what you see as hypocrisy - fine, I respect that. So - why is it a problem? that a whole bunch of other families have access to a school that you don't want to send your dcs to?

It's a problem because most of the state schools around here are Catholic. If there are, say 5 Catholic schools in an area and one non-denominational one, then Catholic children can choose from all those 6 schools and non-Catholics have no choice at all. If that one non-demoniationsal school is oversubscribed (it will be) and they don't get in, then they have to go way out of borough instead of being able to go to one of the other five local schools.

Are you really saying, talkingofmichaelangelo, that you'd be fine if almost all your local state schools were Muslim, and your DCs would only be admitted if they converted to Islam?