What is the rationale for leaving crisis threads up once OP is safe?

[ArsenicChaseScream]

I know there are differing opinions for what should happen before that point BUT once an OP has said they are safe, accompanied or similar, is there not a strong argument for suspending the thread?

I was a poster who responded to the suicide thread the night before last. I was totally taken in by it and very concerned about the OP. I couldn't sleep afterwards, messaged MNHQ, PM'd OP etc.

I must be gullible - I have been taken in a few times on 'help me' threads since I arrived several years ago, including one when I was pg with my twins 5 years ago and was taken in by a poster who, over a period of several weeks, claimed she was also pregnant with twins, joined the Multiples support group and then claimed her twins were very poorly and had died in utero. She was PMing me for several weeks after she had been revealed as a troll by MNHQ, which was a bit distressing at the time.

Back to the suicide thread - having been through something similar myself in my teens (attempted suicide of someone close to me), it did bring it back and has stayed with me. Even though I knew it might not be genuine, it is hard not to respond to a poster who sounds so desperate. It upset me to find out yesterday that it was probably trolling. However I'd rather be taken in 10 times and help one person than someone be denied a place to get support. It is very hard.

I will be interested to see what the Samaritans say, they are the experts.

It's not just suicide threads though is it? Some posters have a kind of hero mentality about situations - the dv thread that had someone meeting the OP, the hospital thread from years ago where someone rang the hospital!, Riven and the huge snowball of contacting the media - cynically I think some people like to be involved and kindly I think some people want to help.
No idea what the answer is. After many years on here I tend to stand back and watch in disbelief.

Feeling suicidal and struggling with those feelings and being actively suicidal with a plan and intent are totally different things.

Excellent post.

heart has made my point about suicide methods far more articulately than I could have made it.

I would like to add these guidelines from the Samaritans re suicide portrayal in drama and in the media. www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/press/Samaritans%20media%20factsheet%20-%20drama%20portrayal.pdf www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide/advice-journalists-suicide-reporting-dos-and-donts

Both mention the risks of copy cat suicides and reference the fact that suicidal people sometimes search for information on suicide methods and may act on it. They also mention that over-identifying with the victim can encourage people to attempt suicide.

Suicide is very complex, and I think some posters are possibly commenting from a position of not being very aware of the research surrounding it.

It is worth noting that there was a thread with reference to a suicide method in the title in active convos yesterday. It's not easy to avoid these references on mumsnet at the moment at all.

I think that there is proven reasoning not to allow explicit posting of methods, as others have said this can be negative.

There are post-moderation sites that allow posting of anything but methods, and seem to survive. I think that would be a good solution.

I think there's something to be said for people simply not to read or post if they find these threads overwhelming, similarly to any other topic found distressing.

I'm of the opinion that if it upsets you don't read it, there should be moderation to ensure no one is posting about methods etc but suicide is such an emotive topic and so taboo I think it needs to be discussed openly.
A few months ago I was terribly depressed and I was suicidal. I was convinced that it's what I needed.
I'm glad I posted on mumsnet begging for help, I found the mental health board and the villiage. They spoke to me like I was an intelligent human and helped me see that I did need and deserve help, I went to see my gp and am now having therapy and am on antidepressants.
I'm currently having more good days than bad but on my bad days I know the amazing people are there on the mh board and I know I can tell them everything.
Not even exaggerating they saved my life! Mental illness is such a hard subject to discuss without upsetting someone but I think it's important for people without mental health problems to know that people aren't all ok pall the time.
I'm now living in fear that all this upset about these threads will cause hq to pull the plug on the mental health board. I don't think I cou cope with that at all.

To the pp who said that mumsnet is a parenting forum and should hVe mainly parenting threads

Parents get mentally ill too.

Ugh typos.
Sorry I can type really...

Spidey, there is a difference though between "I'm really struggling" type threads about suicide and the ones that are effectively a suicide note.

The first kind is valuable for posters to receive advice, the second kind isn't helpful to anyone and should not be allowed to remain on any part of the forum.

But often the "suicide note" ones are a cry for help, rather than just a "I'm definately doing it and you can't stop me" I read them more as "I really want to do this because I think there's no hope" the thing is if someone is truly intent to commit suicide with the best will in the world unless you can guess that that's what they're planning and have them committed they often won't tell anyone of their plans and the first you know they were suicidal is when they're found. By posting these threads the ops are, even if it's just a tiny bit and even if it's subconscious, they're reaching out and I think at that stage its important to at least try to help them.
Had my posts been deleted and just a formal email from hq had arrived then I would've been very upset and it probably would've pushed me towards the edge.

Although I did once post a thread asking if others had a suicide plan as I did and I thought it was something everyone did. The thread was deleted (and so it should have been as it was pointless and triggering) and hq sent me a lovely email checking i was ok, it was that thread and me realising that the wah I was thinking was very wrong which made me start to question how I was feeling. I have been depressed and suffering for many years and I had convinced myself that everyone felt the same as I did.

The saying goes that people who talk about committing suicide tend not to go on to do so, and the people who do go on to do it tend not to talk about it first.

Has any research been done/opinion been given by authoritative sources, on the relationship between internet posting and likelihood of acting on words written? In other words, is posting on a forum like 'talking about committing suicide' or is it, somehow, different?

My personal view is that it is a huge risk to allow peer-support for potentially or actually suicidal posters for the following reasons:

1. Nobody can guarantee that the support needed will be available at the time of need - we don't schedule posters to post around the clock.

1. A poster who is 'saved' from suicide by helpful, kind, posters can be prevented from seeking the help of more specialised services, because:

a) The immediate 'crisis' will be over. Just as with Domestic Violence, once the crisis is over, the individual is likely to rationalise their experience. 'I wasn't really going to do it anyway....', 'I was just venting my despair...', 'I don't really need RL help - I didn't do anything'....

b) The poster may get a flood of posters all saying very nice, supportive things, but actually, it's not a fix for the underlying despair. It's a start, but it's not going to resolve the depression or circumstances that led someone to such a place that killing themselves seemed like a realistic answer to their problems.

c) The poster remains anonymous and if they seek RL help they are exposed.

1. It sets a bit of a precedent. IF MN became known for the support that it gives to posters in despair, more posters could turn to MN in times of crisis. The capacity of individuals to support people in crisis could quickly wear thin.

1. When (and I say when quite deliberately) a poster makes an OP in despair, knowing the support that x, y, z poster received really helped them, and that help doesn't materialise for very innocent reasons (perhaps it's posted at a busy posting time and it quickly drops off the active convo list; perhaps the people who hang around MH are all busy so nobody replies, etc.) it would be very easy for someone in a desperate state to perceive that as further confirmation of their lack of worth.

1. The risk to other posters. People who are very fragile could be risking their MH to help the suicidal poster - how many people die trying to rescue their dog, even though they can't swim? People who have themselves been desperate will wade in to save someone, even if they themselves are one step away from drowning.

1. Frankly, suicidal ideation should not be a mainstream topic for discussion. Ever. Suicide is very, very, rarely the decision taken by a rational mind. Anyone with suicidal intent should not be posting on a mainstream forum - they should be dialling the Samaritans, 999, or presenting at A&E.

But lougle, sometimes suicide is the only rational choice, questioned only by the emotional but selfish reason of not wanting to leave one's children.
Why should it not be a topic for discussion? Why do you get to decide what is rational or not? Do you have any idea how patronising you sound? Should we all be locked up out of sight so as not to disturb your idea of what the world should be? Until I posted here, I didn't even know that not every one thought about it.

And as for your point 2, how about : a poster who is 'saved' from suicide by helpful, kind posters can be prevented from killing themselves.
Once the immediate crisis is over they may realise that there is help available and there feel able and supported enough to get that help.
It may not fix the underlying "despair" but it might allow them to think things through, sound out their thoughts. (Which is far easier to do anonymously).
Do you have any idea how mind-numbingly terrifying the idea of exposition is? If someone can express anonymously and be met with compassion and understanding, then it make it far, far easier to seek help in real life.

Oh and just because someone is suicidal does not mean that they are stupid. I think they can figure out that if they post at 3am there are likely to be less people online/answering than at other times of the day. That is pretty obvious to anyone.

I disagree. It isn't rational. At all. It's also selfish. I am not stating that as an authority. I'm stating it as an individual who is permitted to comment on a discussion forum.

As for my point 2, I don't think the chances of someone who has resolved to kill themselves being turned around on that by posting on a forum are high. I think that the vast majority of those who would claim to have been saved from it by posting on a forum would, in reality, fall in the 'depressed enough that it was an option, but not resolved to do so that day.'

I do feel strongly about it. I've seen the suffering that it brings. The questions unanswered. The guilt that if only they hadn't....the individual wouldn't be dead. The feeling of inadequacy - that they weren't enough to stop their loved one taking their life....the list goes on.

It isn't as simple as making a choice to end your life. It can end the life of your loved ones for a long time, too. It certainly changes who they are as people. It's unavoidable.

But that is the point. It is the only rational decision. And it is not selfish because you know you are doing the best for your family/children, that their lives will improve once you are not there.

You think that the people who claim to have been saved by posting on a forum would, in reality, fall in the 'depressed enough that it was an option, but not resolved to do it that day" camp. Well, that's ok then. Let's just leave them to it because in a couple of days/weeks they will be in "actually going to do it today" camp and then there'll be no more of their "irrational" ideas tainting your online experience. Problem solved.

I disagree strongly. The very fact that persons at serious risk of suicide can be sectioned for their own safety, is evidence that suicide is not seen as a rational option.

Please remember that it isn't only those who have experienced suicidal ideation who have 'baggage' around this topic. I think I'm done here.

Snowy, I'm really worried about your words - you seem to be validating suicide as a normal option and that's quite scary when you think who might be reading?
Apologies if I've read it wrong but I don't think it's a sensible thing to post.

Sorry, got called away to dress Dc's. What I am ineloquently trying to say is that when you are in that place, you look for refuge in familiarity. And if you need somewhere to talk through your decision then you look to the place which has helped you before. When you needed advice in pg or with relationship advice or whatever.

No, I'm not trying to validate it as a normal option. Clearly I am not coming across as I mean so I shall leave this now.

I posted last year, when I had no other decent support. My family love me etc but they had no idea what to do and I had no one else to turn to. I was struggling with feeling suicidal and backing out, then making plans then backing out again etc.

MN may just be an internet forum, but I posted in MH and people (mostly) gave brilliant advice and support. I can honestly say things may habe turned out very differently if I hadn't had that at the darkest point, when I felt like nobody else cared if I was dead or not...

If you see a threda like that, can't you tell from the first post that it's not the one for you (if they bother you)? I managed to avoid other similar posts for a year, until I felt 'strong' enough to read them and give advice if I could. Don't see why others can't do the same?

A very specific area may be a good idea though, so very vulnerable people (ie those affected/bereaved by suicide themselves or those who find it triggering) can avoid them entirely.

I get what you mean Snowy It just looks a bit bad. Suicide isn't a rational thing, quite the opposite. The fact it seems rational (and it does at the time) goes to show how sick you are. That's what I find scariest. The fact that, at my lowest and when posting about it on the MH board I felt it was an increasingly attractive option as I just wanted it all to stop/go away. When I got better I couldn't believe I'd ever considered it. That's the difference between being well or not.

But yes, if I hadn't been able to post here (I hate the normal MH forums on sites like Mind etc as they're more triggering than anything I've seen on MN) then I would have bottled all that up and struggled much more. And potentially not be here anymore. I just hope MNHQ reallllly think about it and ways to make the threads more seperate but not eliminate them. I knew where to get help, so closing my thread and posting links to it would've been useless. People post in those situations because the reality is, a lot of MH services aren't in great form. A poster advised me to just forget the crisis team (who were taking hours to even reply to a phone call) and go straight to A&E which I did and which worked. I wouldn't have gotten that advice off a generic website or the Samaritans etc.