Scottish Referendum debate - watch with Mumsnet

[KatieMumsnet]

So tonight sees the first TV debate of the Scottish Referendum with First Minister and key advocate of the pro- yes campaign, Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling, leader of the pro-UK Better Together campaign coming together for a head to head debate for the first time.

You can watch live from 8pm on STV and if you're south of the border can tune in via the STV player.

Fancy watching along with us? What are you hoping to see from tonight's debate? What are your thoughts on the campaigns so far?

If you've decided which way to vote, why? And if not, what will help you decide?

Do feel free to share these, and any more thoughts you have

[OOAOML]

Re your local activist Rose be grateful it is just leaflets. I wish both sides would keep their posters and stickers to their own property/cars etc. I'm fed up seeing lamp posts and bus stops wrecked - there's one nearby where people have been scratching messages into the Perspex. By all means put up posters and stickers - but don't trash public property. We'll all have to pay for the council to clean this up.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

Business for Scotland have more members than CBI in Scotland and they are official backers of the No campaign. Oh, no, they're not, the office boy/tealady done it and ran away...

[Rafanderpants]

can I ask a question?
sorry if its been asked before, I haven't seen this anywhere else. came to mind.

If Scotland become independent, what happens to the Union Flag? It will have to be redesigned, no?

[prettybird]

The e-book Scotland's Decision: 16 Questions to think about for the referendum on 18 September that Tom Hunter (or his Foundation) has funded looks interesting if somewhat dry.

I haven't read all of it yet, but it purports to set out neutrally the claims from both "sides". What I did note from the introduction was that the claims from both sides as to how much better off you are likely to be will probably both be wrong!

[OOAOML]

FannyFifer Good article today.

www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/05/scottish-independence-financial-sector-currency-union-standard-life

Interesting but overly spun as to the influence of the contributors. jim Spowart is not a Standard Life founder ( for a start he's far too young, the company dates back to the 19th century) he was brought in to run the SL Bank which he did for a very short time before jumping ship. They no longer have the bank, I'm not sure it worked out well for them. And George Matthewson - the guy who brought in Fred Goodwin. Don't really trust his judgement, sorry.

To be fair, there are some financial companies that might do well. There are others that are very likely to do badly if they don't shift operations. There are many factors, but the product range they offer and their client base are key. Sadly the media (this is probably another thing that we can all agree on) aren't really interested in the detail and prefer to lump each individual industry/sector together as one. Companies are looking at ways to move some operations - I don't think anyone has said they would move completely, despite the best efforts of the media to spin statements. I think it is inevitable that jobs will move though.

Disclaimer : I work in financial services, my views are my own and in no way representative of any company etc etc

[OOAOML]

OldLady we can agree on something else - the CBI thing was a fiasco.

However, the quantity of members in Business for Scotland does not make them representative of Scottish business as most people would understand it.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

I think the redesign or otherwise of the Union flag is something that can be safely left in the hands of the College of Arms.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

We're doing quite well, OOAOML! I don't think it matters whether they're representative of Scottish business or not, so long as what they say is sound. But I'll leave that for Olddear and others to decide for themselves.

[OOAOML]

Just making the point that people should have a wee think about who the various sources are . on both sides. Oh what will I do after this when I don't feel the need to do lots of research??

Anyway, better get on with the important question of whether to stop off for something to drink during the debate.

[Roseformeplease]

Evidence for dodgy "Yes" campaigning amongst teens is from my own kids. Neither of them is old enough to vote yet my DS (tall) looks it. He is repeatedly being friend requested on Facebook by "Yes" campaigners who have had him pointed out by others. Two teachers at school openly wear badges and talk of their views in spite of fairly firm warnings from the Council. On a week away (youth camp type thing) he arrived to find the accommodation and activity centre bedecked with "Yes" literature and posters. Three separate youth leaders asked in their sessions about voting intentions, all the while wearing "Yes" badges.

[Numanoid]

prettybird It was me who wrote that, and you're right, I didn't mean it with any malice - I could have worded it better! I did be sure to put "I believe" to show it was only an opinion, but in hindsight no, I don't think No voters don't care about Scotland. Some perhaps don't, but I wouldn't like to make a sweeping statement.
Although I did say it in response to another poster saying exactly the same thing which all the replies to my comment don't mention, apart from the one from prettybird.

[Numanoid]

"Those of us who care about Scotland" totally smacks of the previous rhetoric we used to hear about "those who vote No are traitors"
Information from Wings Over Scotland is about as balanced and valid as information from The Scottish Sun. I wouldn't wrap my chips in the Sun.

Wild - I'm not one of those who believes No voters are traitors. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record but again, it was a bad choice of words. Although I read it, I don't use Wings as my one and only source, and I don't believe anything without a valid source.
I do read Better Together/various No campaign literature too, but find it to be full of inaccuracies and threats. It's quite condescending, too. Better Together recently used The Sun as a source, which was a bad move, I think.

[Roseformeplease]

Luckily, he is not voting and, in any case, does not intimidate easily. However, a softer touch, who is older, might cave under the pressure. I am also not looking forward to being blamed for everything that is not perfect as an "out" No voter after 18/9. Many, many "No" voters are keeping very, very quiet. It is like being gay 100 years ago. We think we know who the others are but, if we are not sure, we keep quiet for fear of censure.

[Numanoid]

Rose I don't think that's representative of Yes voters as a whole. It's annoying that so many people are saying that Yes voters are using intimidation tactics and making No voters afraid to speak out. I always have my Yes badge on, but wouldn't discuss it unless approached. I also "campaign" if you like over FB, and have never been contacted by random Yes voters.
I find the literature from HM Government, funded by our taxes, insulting and am on the verge of complaining about it being posted out to me more than once. I don't want to be threatened for voting for independence. I think a lot of the older generation will sadly feel pressured to vote No regardless as the govt are doing a splendid job of telling them they'll lose their pensions post-independence.

[Numanoid]

That said, if you feel your son is being harassed by people, you do of course have every right to report it. I do know there are people on each side who are in the wrong over the way they do things. :)

[SirChenjin]

I said let those of us who really care about Scotland in response to We need a government that cares about Scotland, not just southern England. It isn't about breaking up the UK, it's about Scotland standing on its own two feet, subsequently benefiting the Scottish people more. I then went onto say that Should have added - we ALL care about Scotland. Neither side has the right to stake that claim any more than the other. There was a gap in my posting because I was at work and my colleague kept pestering me with work issues.

All of us care about Scotland, whether that's as an independent country or as a country within the Union - which is why we are having this 'debate'. Hope that clears things up.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

I'd agree with OOAOML, the lumping together of entire industries is really counterproductive. It also means people try to dismiss the very real concerns of the people in those industries - I'm FS too and I know various companies are having pretty serious discussions about what to do post referendum, scenario planning etc and it isn't surprising that for at least some of those companies those scenarios include at least a partial movement of staff/operations/capital. That's not scaremongering (as I have been told) or me being fearful (as I have been accused of) - it's just something that people will be taking in to account. I've been called selfish, told I can get a different career, and had it pointed out that "where will you be in 70 years, you'll be dead so what does something trivial like that matter"...

That's not to say it's a reason not to vote yes, but for some people it's a factor and dismissing it doesn't help

[FannyFifer]

Dodgy Darling.

[WildThong]

See, Fanny I don't think personal attacks like that are helpful, from either side.

[WildThong]

Pressed post too soon...
We are always being told that a Yes vote is not a vote for Alex Salmond, surely by that reasoning then, a No vote is not for Alistair Darling? Or are the rules different for No voters?

[SirChenjin]

It's true Statistically - DH is FS (tax) and has many clients who are poised to move their finances south of the border post independence. Unless an inde Scottish Govt can deliver immediate results within a definitive framework there will be lot of wealth and resources moving dahn sarf to watch and wait.

[FannyFifer]

How is stating facts about Darling a personal attack?
A personal attack would be taking the piss out of his weird eyebrows for example which is not something I would do.

[WildThong]

Because dig deep enough and "dodgy" decisions can be found anywhere.
Here is a link to Alex Salmonds support for Fred Goodwin - how did that go?
dodgy?

[Olddear]

I think there's an element of 'yes' voters who are a bit 'wha's like us' and whilst there's nothing wrong with patriotism, nationalism is something different. There is so much more to this very important vote than national pride. I know there are much smarter political minds on this thread than mine, but like another poster said above, I keep quiet if I'm not sure of the company I'm in!

[SirChenjin]

Do you want to balance that up with some facts about Alex 'Ryder Cup' Salmond? Or shall we just move on and leave the mud-slinging to one side?