Scottish Referendum debate - watch with Mumsnet

[KatieMumsnet]

So tonight sees the first TV debate of the Scottish Referendum with First Minister and key advocate of the pro- yes campaign, Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling, leader of the pro-UK Better Together campaign coming together for a head to head debate for the first time.

You can watch live from 8pm on STV and if you're south of the border can tune in via the STV player.

Fancy watching along with us? What are you hoping to see from tonight's debate? What are your thoughts on the campaigns so far?

If you've decided which way to vote, why? And if not, what will help you decide?

Do feel free to share these, and any more thoughts you have

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

I would have loved to have seen a devomax option (properly worked out, and properly guaranteed) on the ballot, but it's not there. I don't think anyone will have the energy to demand it after September either, whichever way the vote goes. I just hope it's a clear, decisive vote, at least 60/40.

[prettybird]

I'm still trying to understand why it is we are "better together". I hope that Darling will elaborate on that tonight.

I can understand the response "because I *feel" British and want to remain so" ie a gut response - and indeed, that is why I would have voted No in 1979 if I had been able to (as it was, my voted counted as a No even though I wasn't allowed to vote ).

But times have changed since then. Things promised in 1979 never materialised. I think if a genuinely federal structure had been set up then across the UK, a lot of the impetus towards independence would have been diverted.

So far, all I've heard from the Better Together Campaign has been lots of threats and half-truths. For example, you won't be able to use the pound even though it's an internationally traded currency or the NHS is stronger together - despite the fact that the Scottish NHS is already and has always been a separate entity, with commercial reciprocal arrangements with the English NHS (as well as Ireland and other countries) or that we don't know whether we will be able to join the EU (we don't know whether we'll be in the EU if there is an In/Out Referendum after the next Westminster election, assuming Scotland votes No).

The one that really annoys me is that the English would become "foreigners" as if that's somehow a bad thing . As someone who came to Scotland when I was 3, just aboout all my blood relatives (with the exception of my Dad, brother and ds) are "foreigners", from Germany, South Africa, Denmark, Australia.....

My dad is always telling me that the decision to vote Yes or No shouldn't be based on economics (we'd got talking about the potential size of the Claire Ridge oilfield) but about whether you think it is the right thing to do. In his view, it is about self-determination and values, which is why he is voting Yes.

[Olddear]

I get angry when scots (and I am one, living in Scotland) say it's unfair we are being ruled by a Tory government when we don't want to be ruled by the Tories! I didn't want to be ruled by Tony Blair but that's what happened!! That's democracy! I'm enjoying the debates re the referendum but lean towards a No vote. And I do take exception to the poster who said 'those of us who care about Scotland' we ALL care! SNP dont have the monopoly on that! I just feel there's not enough information re currency etc. and if I hear Norway used as a comparison one more time......!!!!!!!!

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

I didn't want to be ruled by Tony Blair, and I don't want to be ruled by Tories either. A yes vote will give me - all of us - that freedom. Of course any given individual won't always get the gvt they voted for, but we can do better than we have in the past 30-40 years, surely?

[member]

I'm a Scot living in England so haven't had the same exposure as I would have had I still been in Scotland. If the vote goes in favour of Independence, has any timescale been put forward as to when Scotland will actually cease to be part of the Union?

[Numanoid]

So far, all I've heard from the Better Together Campaign has been lots of threats and half-truths.

The latest literature from HM Government has a lot of contradictions and threats, it's quite shocking how far they'll go.

Olddear It may be democracy, but there are a lot more people in the south of England alone than in Scotland. Unfortunately, they have a lot more say in how things are run.

[FannyFifer]

Nicola had already pretty much debated everyone.

Darling had no say over anything, he can't give answers.

[prettybird]

Olddear - to be fair on the poster who wrote "those of us who care about Scotland" - she was was just reflecting back the same words that a previous, No voting, poster had used "let those of us who really care about Scotland go forward in peace and stronger within a United Kingdom" - but who hadn't then got jumped upon.

I hope don't think either of them meant it as bluntly as they came across.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

www.bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/index.php/city-news/779-poultice-darling-needs-to-give-scotlandshire-viewers-what-they-want.html Just to lighten the mood... member After a yes vote, there will be about 18 minths of negotiations, and Independence Day is planned as 24 March 2016.

[member]

Wow, that seems quite quick - thanks!

[Olddear]

I just feel it's a huge leap into the unknown, with, in my opinion, not enough information. It's not something we can go back on in eg two years time and say 'oops, we made a mistake, can we get back in please?' My concern is the legacy I leave behind for the young children in my family. It's not just my lifetime, it's what kind of country it'll be in 40/50/60 when they will be middle aged. I don't want to make a huge mistake on their behalf because I put my X in the 'yes' box! I need to be sure the oil will still be flowing for a very long time to come!!!!

[FannyFifer]

The oil is a bonus, we are a rich country even without it.

[OOAOML]

It has to be that quick for the SNP to stamp their mark all over it before the next Holyrood election in 2016

In reality, I'm not sure how achievable that timescale is, especially with the UK General Election in 2015 to factor in.

[FannyFifer]

Good article today.

www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/05/scottish-independence-financial-sector-currency-union-standard-life

[Roseformeplease]

As an example of the problem with "Yes" we have our local activist (tiny village). She has repeatedly been asked, politely, not to put literature through the door as it is wasted - we have made up our minds and do not want to be forever recycling. However, she does not listen. She seems to think we are too stupid to know what we want or to make up our own minds because we are "No" and we, therefore, as said above, somehow don't want what's best for Scotland.

No will prevail, but like a marriage where someone has had an affair, it will be very, very hard afterwards to put things back together again. The "Yes" campaign has lost the economic argument time and time again. They really only have two arguments - 1. We hate the Tories and you do too so vote yes. And 2. Wallace, Braveheart, Roy Roy tartan.

Interestingly, the "Yes" campaign has been doing a lot of fairly dodgy campaigning amongst teens which could, if the vote goes to a recount (which it won't) tie the whole thing up in legislation for years.

[Olddear]

Convince me FannyFifer.......honestly. I want to do the right thing!!!

[prettybird]

Are there any countries who've ever wanted to "return to the fold", having asked for and achieved independence?

I tried to Google it - but could only find pages and pages about the Scottish referendum with a few references to Taiwan and Quebec.

[Olddear]

Roseformeplease. I would be sorely tempted to take all her literature and put it back through her door!

[FannyFifer]

Can you provide some evidence please of dodgy campaigning amongst teens.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

www.businessforscotland.co.uk/ There's lots of stuff on that link, Olddear.

[FannyFifer]

Also if you seriously think those are the only two arguments put forward then you are seriously deluded & I can see the YES campaigners point as clearly you do need more information.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

Like Roseformetea please, I'm not much looking forward to the aftermath. My gut feeling is that it is going to be close, and that means that whichever way it goes there will be a lot of unhappy people. I've already seen friends and families arguing about this. I don't want to live in a divided country (I mean divided Scotland!) and this sort of division was never something I was aware of until the referendum appeared on the horizon.

I have also experienced seriously patronising behaviour from some Yes voters. I actually know a lot of No voters (I'd say majority of people I know) but amongst those who I know (and certainly on good old facebook!) the Yes are a lot more vocal. There does seem to be an assumption by many of them (by no means all) that those who aren't Yes supporters just "don't understand", "need to be educated" or "are falling for the press bias". One was astonished to find that I had read the White Paper but just didn't believe everything it promised.

Admittedly the main culprit for this is a particularly patronising guy who genuinely isn't that intelligent and doesn't understand what I do (a fairly complex job in financial services) so tries to "explain" economics to me and gets it badly wrong - normally because he's being a copy and paste warrior and doesn't understand it himself! And states things as fact which aren't e.g. "we will be in the EU immediately", "we will definitely keep the pound and be in a currency union so don't you worry about that", "no banks or financial companies will move" etc etc. To me, having done a fair bit of reading (not in the last few weeks admittedly!) those are all less than certain - they could happen, they might not.

I wish both sides would have a far more open and honest campaign. Don't lie to us and say X,Y or Z will happen if we vote Yes/No when it's far too uncertain for that.

[WildThong]

Late to thread but had to comment.
"Those of us who care about Scotland" totally smacks of the previous rhetoric we used to hear about "those who vote No are traitors"
Information from Wings Over Scotland is about as balanced and valid as information from The Scottish Sun. I wouldn't wrap my chips in the Sun.
I would like to see a debate tonight without any pompous grandstanding or petty tit for tat. What's the chances of clear, honest information. I would admire the politician who stood up and said one way or another, "we will do this, we won't do that, we don't know what will happen but we will do our best" instead of the un-evidenced Utopia that some people are willing to believe in.

[OOAOML]

At work just now and can't find the link, but if you google business for Scotland there has been some interesting work done researching who is actually in it. I think they were estimated as representing 0.5% of Scotand's GDP and containing lots of registered traders with no recorded turnover or staff. They don't really represent the views of Scottish business.

[WhatTheFork]

I'm disappointed that some people are not interested in watching the debate. It is such an important decision for everyone in Scotland.

I will be voting yes as I believe the people of Scotland will fare better away from a Westminster government. People of Scotland's votes aren't worth the paper they're crossed on, and this has been the case for a century at least.

Saying that if on the 19th Sept I wake up to hear that the result was no, I'll respect that. I'll be gutted that the chance to change our lives and the lives of our children and grandchildren for the better has been thrown away though.