Isn't about Fattism was added to the list of prohibited 'isms'?

[Fideliney]

I've read one too many rather squawky assertions recently on MN that 'skinny bashing' has the same socio-cultural connotations and (ahem) heft as fattism. It doesn't.

Isn't fattism the only socially widespread discrimination/ hatred NOT specifically banned on MN now? Have I got that right?

I've been mulling this overnight and things are routinely posted about overweight people on MN which, if the words 'asian' or 'gay' were substituted for 'fat' or 'obese', nobody would even attempt to defend.

I know haterz gotta hate or whatever the expression is but could we just leave them something insipid and harmless like nylon hating or persecution of cockroaches to get on with and make a clean sweep of the 'isms'?

[Inthedarkaboutfashion]

Not all but most overweight people: yes.
It isn't rocket science to understand that if you eat a lot of calorific food and have a normal metabolism you will gain weight. Too many people are in complete denial about the quantity and types of foods that they eat.
I eat too much rubbish but when I gain weight I know why that is and I know what I need to do to get back to my usual weight. Actually doing what is required isn't always easy but I only have myself to blame if I eat to much rubbish and gain weight.

[Hedgehogsrule]

Bloomin As you know from personal experience, some people can eat a lot of food, including sugary and fatty food, without becoming fat. Whereas others become fat very easily, and have to eat tiny amounts of healthy food and feel perpetually hungry in order to lose weight and even in order to maintain their current weight. Just saying.

[PetulaGordino]

how do you know it's most overweight people who have that mindset?

i often see posts on here saying "i don't believe that the majority of overweight/obese people can have MH problems / eating disorders" - why not?

not that i think that only those with MH problems are worthy of sympathy or support, but i wonder how it is that so many people are experts on the reasons behind how people came to be overweight?

you only have to look at posts on here to see how hard it is for people who are overweight to seek help in RL, particularly if they have a disordered relationship with food. many have been on the receiving end of nothing more than "eat less, move more" responses from HCPs, which haven't helped because they don't tackle the root of the problem, so they have felt even more of a failure and even less inclined to go back and ask for more support.

lots of overweight people laugh and say "oh it's just because i'm greedy", which may be true for some, but they may be saying that to counteract or pre-empt the negative remarks they receive, whereas they know that actually they are self-medicating with food. i am not saying this is the case for all, just that it is rare to get a true understanding of these things because often people protect themselves with an act

so i don't think there is any clear data on the different reasons why people may have become overweight

[PetulaGordino]

i suspect that the response to my post will be "the reason all these overweight people came to be that way was because they ate too much of the wrong things". which isn't necessarily wrong, but i am saying that in most cases it will be more than that, and if (as a society) we want people to lose weight and keep it off, focusing purely on that aspect will not be successful

[Inthedarkaboutfashion]

i often see posts on here saying "i don't believe that the majority of overweight/obese people can have MH problems / eating disorders" - why not?

68% of people are overweight / obese. Do you really believe that 68% of the population has a mental health problem?
I think arguing that 68% of people have a MH problem (or even the majority of the 68% of people) is undermining real MH issues.

[PetulaGordino]

i'm not arguing that that is the case - i'm saying that we don't know whether that is the case or not! the assumption seems to be that it is a teeny tiny minority, but it could be that just over half of people who are overweight have MH problems, we don't know. they estimate that 25% of people in the UK will have a MH problem in their lifetime, presumably there is some overlap, though of course not all those MH problems will be related to or have an impact on weight. so in all likelihood it's not the majority of the 68% or whatever who are overweight, but given the shame and covering up that comes with both eating disorders and MH problems it's surely conceivable that it is under-reported?

it's the people who are saying "i don't believe" that i'm objecting to. i don't know myself, and i don't want to assume that based on my experience of a handful of overweight people (and on biased reporting) that all are the same

and disordered eating is a "real MH issue" - there are of course varying degrees as with all MH issues, but don't dismiss that out of hand

[PetulaGordino]

i also don't think that the %age of people who don't have MH problems associated with or contributing to weight problems are undeserving of compassion and support, nor that they deserve to be on the receiving end of scorn and condescension

[ICanHearYou]

I think it's is just as bad for body image to be too thin as if is to be too large.

This constant attack on anyone who points out obesity as unhealthy just makes people look incredibly jealous and a bit unhappy with themselves

[AnyoneForTennis]

I can mention food manufacturers if I want, it was all bandied around on one of the other threads about obesity. You can't control what people say/think/post fideliney

[PetulaGordino]

i'm not overweight, though it hardly matters

i just think that the messages to people who are overweight that go "you are unhealthy, you are a drain on society, you should be ashamed of yourself, you are not deserving of respect, you are unattractive, you are disgusting, it's a simple case of eat less move more" are not effective. if they were, we wouldn't be in the situation we are now. and i reckon that the majority of overweight people are already telling themselves these things in their heads already, they don't need to be told by others too

there are other far more supportive, understanding, kind ways to talk to people that are much more effective

[AnyoneForTennis]

inthedark as much as 68%? I agree they can't all have MH issues.

[Nerf]

www.gov.uk/government/policies/reducing-obesity-and-improving-diet

Scary stuff.

[Bunbaker]

I agree that it is scary. I'm inclined to think that a major reason we have this problem is portion sizes. I generally find when eating out that it is all I can do to eat a main course. I don't bother with starters or dessert, and I don't exactly have a mouse like appetite.

[Nerf]

True, I do find portions generally quite large, and even kids meals now are big with limitless refills etc in some places.
There are so many mixed messages out there though - real women have curves, slebs with circles of shame on their cellulite, designer sizes only in size 00 etc , high street vanity sizing ...

[MyFairyKing]

1 in 4 adults will have a MH condition at any one point. Just saying!

I also wonder if those who love to point out the dangers of obesity (as if most don't know!) join in and laugh on the drunk threads or smoke.

[Nerf]

Personally I don't point out the dangers of obesity to individuals either on here or in real life. I don't see any point, it's not rocket science and I'm not going to change anyone's habits.
That doesn't stop me being concerned that as a nation we are growing fatter.

[Nerf]

And (in the interests of full disclosure) I was flamed on a thread for expressing mild horror at someone drinking 4 cans regularly of a night, and I nag dh to quit smoking all the time, for health and cosmetic reasons.

[Inthedarkaboutfashion]

I also wonder if those who love to point out the dangers of obesity (as if most don't know!) join in and laugh on the drunk threads or smoke.

I don't join in the drunk threads and I don't smoke either.

Petula: I agree that fat shaming doesn't help people to lose weight but neither does pretending the problem is non existent or treating it as a taboo subject that we need to mind how we tread around. Obesity is unhealthy regardless of how much pussyfooting we do around the topic and most obese people are that way due to their food consumption regardless of any possible MH issues( which I think is over estimated on this thread). My opinions and I am entitled to them.

[PetulaGordino]

re food manufacturers, i do think we live in to extent an "obesogenic" environment in the UK. that's not purely the fault of the food manufacturers, but they have their part to play in it, as do shops, our traditions etc

the fact is that we are animals, we have evolved to seek out food to sustain us, particularly through the winter months when food is scarce in the natural environment. we are particularly attracted to sweet-tasting foods, as they tend not to be poisonous, which also tended to only be available at harvest time (fruits), so we could gorge ourselves and store up energy for the winter. also fatty foods which help us feel full and satiated.

of course, these foods are now not only available all year round, they're also available 24/7 in our society. we have evolved to experience positive responses to eating (in order to survive), so it's not surprising that when food is available we will want to eat it, and we will be most attracted to the food that makes our pleasure receptors go "ding ding ding ding ding"!

food manufacturers want to be profitable companies, so will naturally develop the foods that most people most want to eat. that is normal in a capitalist society

if shops can make more money by being open 24/7 then they will, again, not surprising

add to that the way that we are wedded to food in a social way - sharing, celebrating, comforting, being hospitable - food as social currency. it can be very difficult to get away from this, people don't want to be social bores who don't join in

of course some people (no doubt many who have commented on this thread) will have less attraction to food, or more willpower, or live somewhere or in a way that is less convenient in terms of access to food. but for many it's a constant battle because there is so much food, and it's always bloody there and always easily and reasonably cheaply available, it's not illegal, it doesn't stop you being able to drive or look after dependents. add people with mental health or emotional problems that are either associated with or have an impact on eating behaviours to that and it's not surprising really that so many people struggle. in some ways it's surprising that the obesity rate isn't higher!

i don't have the answers, and i'm not about to say that we should have a blanket ban on processed food or 24hr supermarkets etc. i'm just trying to say that it's not as easy as many people believe

[PetulaGordino]

i'm not pretending the problem is non-existent at all. i just think that the way we talk about it can be different

[7Days]

great post Petula

[PetulaGordino]

ok, in the interests of clarity perhaps it would be better if i redefine the mh aspect to say "mh and emotional problems" - i would wager that more than half of overweight people will fall under that umbrella

[Inthedarkaboutfashion]

I have no doubt that many overweight people do have emotional problems. I'm sure if I was to gain 5 stone of weight I would feel upset and have body image issues and associated emotional problems. But which comes first in most cases, is it the weight gain or is it the emotional problem? Which one causes the other in most cases?

It's no secret that exercise is a good mood lifter and has some usefulness in people who suffer from mild depression. Looking better and feeling healthier makes people feel better. Sitting around self loathing because you are overweight has the opposite effect on a persons mood so it is somewhat self perpetuating. The only person who can make changes to diet and levels of activity is the person themself.
We can't really blame food manufacturers because 32% of the population are not overweight despite having access to the same food. 32% of people do not live an isolated existence where there are no shops. There are lots of takeaways in my area and lots of shops but there are plenty of slim people. Good manufacturers might play on people's weaknesses for unhealthy food but they don't force feed people.

[Scousadelic]

At work I come into contact with Smoking Cessation services and was amazed to see how much of their "breaking your addiction" advice was also applicable to weight loss. I think for a large number of overweight people food is an addiction or used as medication of some sort, just as nicotine and alcohol are.

I would certainly not claim 68% of people have mental health issues but conversely those people may, while not ill, have issues of low self-esteem, mild anxiety, etc which is often compounded by the reaction of society to them. As an example, my SIL who is slim will often stop while out shopping for coffee and possibly a cake or snack whereas I, as a larger woman, feel too uncomfortable to do that due to the nasty looks and whispered comments of other people

It would be interesting though to compare food intake of a "naturally slender" person who struggles to gain weight and somebody like me who struggles to lose it. I did once, at size 24, go on an activity holiday with a friend who is a size 6 (coincidentally she is a GP so was always advising me on how to lose weight) and our children. We were together all holiday so ate the same and did the same activities, by the time of our return she weighed the same and I had gained 4lb which made her question her views. If I look at a slimming magazine where they show before and after diets for successful slimmers I can promise you mine has always been far more like the latter than the former yet I am still very large. I find it dispiriting that so many people still think it is so simple.

[PetulaGordino]

"32% of the population are not overweight despite having access to the same food" - i did address that in my post. we are all different, people respond physiologically, emotionally, intellectually differently to environmental factors

and it is a chicken/egg situation wrt emotional eating i agree

and of course no one is being force-fed. but if you are someone who is receptive to food as a stimulus, or are in the habit of using it to self-medicate, whatever, then if you are trying to lose weight in western society in many ways you will be spending the whole day metaphorically or literally saying "no", "no", "no", "no" to food being constantly on offer, whilst at the same time trying to eat enough of the right stuff to survive. there are plenty of slim people who live like this and good for them. there is of course a huge element of changing habit, routine, and learned responses to situations and it is difficult for people to do that. so we should be understanding when it is harder for some people to learn or relearn these things, not assuming that they are stupid or lazy or greedy

i just think we should be more understanding of behaviours and triggers that surround obesity and discuss the problem of increasing obesity in those terms rather than just sending the message to overweight people that they are disgusting, a drain on society, unworthy of respect, stupid, because this does not help the problem at all