Too late for the webchat BUT can we have a new section in FWR please?

[BOF]

One which IS a safe space for feminists? Where it would be possible to talk about, yunno, stuff from a feminist perspective without dealing with hostile trolls and posters who harangue and derail feminist discussion?

The concept of a safe space is pretty fundamental to feminist theory, so it seems weird that this isn't recognised on MN. It could even be non-googlable and not in Active Convos, like OTBT.

The main areas could remain, and new people to feminism/people offering alternative viewpoints could still post as much as they liked.

It strikes me that this might encourage back some of the excellent posters we have lost, and solve the problem of persistent frustration which characterises the often-derailed discussions.

What do people think?

While I understand why you want it, I think it would be impossible to achieve. If feminists can find it, so can the antis. How would you police it? Would you want different "talk guidelines"? How would you expect MN to tell the difference between a feminist with a view that does not co-incide with yours, and an intruder?

I think it's a great idea! There are a couple of posters who just love to goad the feminists but stay just within the TGs, if they had to search for it like OTBT, it might put them off.

If you want something non-googlable and not in Active Convos, perhaps the best thing would be to start the threads you want in OTBT, and make the restrictions you want clear at the beginning of the thread. You wouldn't be able to promote any such non-googlable feminist space openly, or it would defeat the purpose of keeping it non-googlable etc, so whether or not OTBT was used, it couldn't be used as a device for drawing new feminists to the site. But you could PM like-minded feminists to encourage them on to the thread.

I have always found feminist discussion really very possible on MN under the existing arrangement in FWR and accross the site. I don't find the intrusions of anti-feminists as disruptive as the prescriptiveness of some feminist participants. So it feels like it would be a good idea if people who did want a more restricted "safe space" convo could start threads by agreement in OTBT, in addition to their participation in the FWR topic.

I would welcome it (I lurk with interest on FWR but haven't posted, partly because of these problems) but I'm not sure how achievable it is.

It would probably be easier to set up a closed Facebook page, membership by invitation only.

I know the trolls would still turn up, but they could be reported as they would explicitly be unwelcome in just that section- so anti-feminist and wottaboutdamenz posts could be deleted as inappropriate in that section.

Nobody would report genuine feminist debate (yes, including choice feminism etc).

IT WOULD BE BRILLIANT.

Yup let's make feminism a closed sport for a select few....

IMO everyone needs to be in the debate. If you know certain posters derail for sport or can see it then ignore stupid/inflammatory posts?

And posters would be able to KNOW they could just ignore troll posts, because they would feel confident their posts would be zapped after reporting.

I think it would do a lot to restore trust and good relations between feminist mners and MNHQ, actually.

Feminists have always had safe spaces when they've self-organised.

It has never stopped them engaging in feminist campaigns or debate in the rest of the world. It wouldn't stop them on MN either.

Why can't you & friends invite likeminded feminists to a closed Facebook group and have your safe conversations there? You wouldn't have to worry about anyone butting in.

"Nobody would report genuine feminist debate..." Don't be too sure, I have been accused of being an MRA troll, a man, and a pimp for disagreeing with radfems. And yes, it was about "choice" feminism.

Ah, I see OldLady has already said the same thing.

It worked sooooo well last time round, eh?

Yes, you are probably right, BeerTricks

I thought they might listen if it was ONE small section actually, but yeah, they probably won't be interested .

Moderators presumably moderate the entire site though? Not just one board? I really don't know how it works. I do think Facebook would be better. Certainly if that serious I'm not sure anonymity for example is VIP....?

I think that MN has the right kind of feminist space for the kind of site that it is -- wide open to all-comers, very public, encouraging of the broadest debate possible and yet still a very definitely female space.

I can of course see the value in a different, more closed arena for feminist discussion, to complement the kind of thing available on MN but I really can't see why MN should be the place to provide it. Anyone who wants to can set up that kind of closed discussion for free at the drop of a hat. And if it is intended to be non-googlable, it wouldn't benefit at all from being hosted by MN -- it couldn't garner more members through links on the site, promotion off-site, etc, because the whole point would be to keep it below the radar of unwanted participants.

I really don't get why some MN feminists are so determined to get MN to provide a different kind of space for women's voices from the one they are already providing. They aren't the whole internet.

I know.

I just don't understand how every other subgroup in the world has a little place on MN where they can chat about their 'thing', but feminists can't.

If someone rocked up in Chickenkeepers saying "Won't somebody think of the foxes", and "Personally I think that battery farming is great", MNHQ would realise they were there to disrupt and shut down enjoyable genuine discussion.

Why can't they see this?

FWR as it stands is SO FUCKNG TEDIOUS because it's full of shouty and unpleasant posters determined to tell everybody how shit they think think feminism and feminists are.

I don't get it.

Sadly I think Were is right

BoF, I completely agree with you there

"I just don't understand how every other subgroup in the world has a little place on MN where they can chat about their 'thing', but feminists can't."

Chicken keepers is a really niche subject that not many people are interested in. The relationships between men and women is of fundamental and pervasive importance and affects everybody profoundly, so lots and lots of people will be attracted to the FWR topic. Breast and bottle feeding topics similarly get a lot of acrimony because most posters are interested in the discussion and there are quite profoundly opposed opinions. But I don't think that separate topics for breast and bottle (or for SAHP and non-SAHP parents, or for people who like dogs and people who hate dogs), have much mileage. I don't think HQ are being disingenuous or hypocritical if they say the feminist topic is for discussion of feminism and not specifically for pro-feminist discussion. That is on a par with their moderation across the site as a whole.