Smacking 'does no harm if a child feels loved': do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello.

We're wondering how you feel about new research that suggests smacking does children no harm as long as they know it is for the right reasons and feel loved.

The publication of this study - which focused on teenagers, it must be said - is causing quite a stir, with, according to the Telegraph, 'parenting groups and charities [reacting] angrily to the findings, [and] maintaining that a child can suffer long term damage from physical discipline'.

In Britain, parents are not banned from smacking their children but it is illegal to inflict injuries causing more than a temporary reddening of the skin.

So, do you agree that smacking is fine, as long as it's tempered with a backdrop of love and affection? Or do you think that smacking is never the answer? Please do tell.

So, I was intrigued. There's maybe 5/10% people on this thread that admit to having smacked their kids. I did a quick poll yesterday (not journo style, - in conversation!) with the mums at school I spoke to (at least 20) - and guess what? 100% said absolutely they had, never over the age of 6 or 7, never leaving any marks, and No, they didn't regret it. I can assure you none of their kids have lifelong psychological scars to deal with, neither do mine. And to the poo lady (can't remember - greywhite/whitegrey?) I would have done the same thing. How much time do you spend negotiating with a 2 year old when you can fix it there and then and forever more? However, I do agree that if a parent is smacking regularly it is not acceptable and there are bigger issues. I can count the times I have smacked my three children on two hands over the last ten years. Don't do it now, they are too old - we use words now they have adequate vocabulary and understanding to do so.
Up until I was 11 they were still using the belt and knuckle rapper in my school. Got it once and I remember it like it was yesterday, they didn't worry about leaving marks then...! I made damn sure I listened next time.
I don't see a correlation between abuse, violence and 'proper ' smacking at all (not US style spanking). However, I do see a strong correlation between the lack of discipline in our society and all this child-led, treat them like little adults, sanctimonious parenting we seem to be favouring.
There is a HUGE difference between being smacked once and being beaten, spanked or slapped. Most people's bad memories on here seem to come from parents that used that as a regular form of discipline.
My final thought is that, hopefully, the fact that it is considered so abhorrent now will hopefully protect many children from near on physical abuse at the hands of their parents. I think the parents that are informed and intelligent enough to use it as intended and in the correct manner will just continue to quietly ignore all the nonsense and get on happily with their lives and the job of bringing their children up.

sorry haven't read all of this but was scanning through and saw a question to me and this will only make sense to the person who asked it. no i don't think that's why he likes his bottom smacked - as a baby that's how he liked to be comforted as well in the night - over my shoulder and patted on the bum very rhythmically. and just to reiterate he was probably smacked on the bum less than a handful of times in a naughty context - the other handful at most times i'm talking about were taps on the hand. two handfuls is probably and exaggeration of how many times he was 'smacked' in total.

he likes his bottom smacked in the same way he likes to be tickled or have raspberries blown on his tummy. i knew people would interpret liking your bum smacked as damaged in some way and obviously there's nothing i can say that can convince those who want to believe that otherwise.

So to clarify,conorsrockers, you don't smack a child once they have an adequate vocabulary and understanding but when they are little, without the right words and they don't understand you just smack them?

A smack does no harm you sound like you have problems from your childhood go get physiological help before you mess your child up to

Out of all that - you got THAT exoticfruit?! I think for a 2 year old that can only have a limited understanding of WHY you are saying no and, if its a dire situation where there is no time for distraction then, yes. Rather than it descending into chaos ...
I know, flame me - I'm so cruel and heartless ...

I think smacking is wrong for all the reasons above.

And I never did it until a few years ago when I was depressed and under extreme stress. And then I went through a phase of smacking my children and threatening them with smacks when they were badly behaved. There were probably about 10 episodes over the course of the year when this happened. They were about 10, 6 and 5 at the time. It was awful.

Would add - before anyone says 'I would never....' - I said this too before I found myself in a situation where I felt utterly powerless as a parent, through no fault of my own. Please don't always assume people smack because they are 'lazy' parents or uncaring. I consider myself a good parent - I have always taken time to talk and listen, treated my children as individuals, tried to provide structure in their lives. Even good, loving people can make mistakes and parent in a sub-optimal way when they are in awful circumstances.

"Dire situation"?

What sort of "dire situation" could possibly mean you had to smack a non verbal 2 year old?

I probably should add that my views are because I was hit often as a child, my mother has almost a constant battle with herself because she feels she ought to love me and like me but neither are the case.
Some of my earliest memory's involve being kicked or hit or beaten or dehumanised as do lots of my older teenager memory's.

I pushed her buttons sometimes just by looking like my dad ( who she despised) but being physical with me never not once stopped any negative behaviour, to the best of my knowledge my siblings never even got a slight tap or anything mostly because to make sure they didnt I would claim every naughty action.

I don't hate my mother I actually love her very much she has never admitted her actions has rewrote my history and forgotten how she treated me ( I know I'm correct about things in the past it may have been normal not to action cases of abuse that involved rich or posh people but child protection records are kept for about 30 years and reports still got filed).

I don't believe she's caused long term damage to me,I'm an adult my emotional health is now my responsibility I own that yes I did have problems but I dealt with it and work on any that surface.

I've forgiven her but I've never forgotten, but she has never not once ever (so far in 25 years) never ever been unattended not even for a second with any child of mine or whom I am responsible for and never will be.

I have lots of children some now adults some very young all mostly behave well and all have never been screamed at or had even a slight tap.

Should clarify it did cause huge damage at the time the only reason its not still is because I have taken responsibility for fixing the problem.

I have never received a decent reply on here when I have asked what could a child possibly do that necessitates being hit? Apart from the old finger in socket. It is always a sign you have lost control ad if it isn't that ad is actually thought out and premeditated hats worse.

Fingers in the electrical socket and running into the road. Pro smackers children do that all the time.

One of the big difficulties is that the acceptability test ie it is ok if it only causes temporary redness does not work in my opinion.

One of my parents had a terrible temper and would lose control and hit us. They very rarely went far enough to make a mark but we were all terrified when the "rage" came down that something worse would happen.

Now clearly that is extreme "smacking". But as with then, the currently accepted test would have made this acceptable and we felt we had no grounds to complain to anyone and just had to endure it.

I personally can't think of an acceptability test that would allow a tap but prevent situations like that. Of course part of our fear came from the rage which no-one can legislate against. But I can assure you that the physical aspect significantly added to the experience.

So yes, many of us who are against smacking as a result of personal experiences did experience things that no-one would find acceptable. But the fact that smacking is generally allowed facilitates this.

You could say that eg the fact that some people don't drive responsibly doesn't mean you should ban driving and you would be right. The difference here is that the only people likely to know what is happening are the vulnerable child and the parent and so there is no-one other than them to judge when it has gone too far. The parent can say to themselves and the child "but I did not make a physical mark" and a child without the experience to judge will feel they have no grounds to complain.

Unfortunately, some children will pay a heavy price for the right to smack.

I'm not sure what else I was supposed to make from it, conorsrockers, you said that you stopped smacking once they had adequate vocabulary and understanding. It assumes that if they are non verbal and don't understand you smack.

I have never seen evidence that it works. DCs got the cane when I was at school. Some DCs never got it and some got it all the time!

"I have never received a decent reply on here when I have asked what could a child possibly do that necessitates being hit?"

As I'm one of the very few people on this thread who's admitted to hitting my children, I can tell you.

I did it when I was ill, suffering from severe exhaustion and nausea, constant nose bleeds, anxiety. DD was 10. She had done really ugly graffiti on a wall in her room (which I had just freshly painted). She shouted in my face when I told her off. I smacked ds2 when he was 5 for repeatedly kicking the back of my seat when I was driving - half an hour of this, while he screamed that he wanted to be taken out for lunch (repeated this - literally - about 400 times) and then clawed a big hole in my arm after getting out the car.

I have smacked 10 year old dd for laughing at me when I was in tears of pain.

Shagmund - I take it the fact you were seriously worn down each time was contributory?

I hate smacking. It is about the parent not the child.

How can smacking be ok if the child knows you love them? You are teaching a child it is ok to hit someone as long as you love them?!

I know everyone has different ways if dealing with things and some smack and regret, but long term smacking can do damage.

I was smacked, not a lot but occasionally, and I remember it was at a very difficult emotional time for me. Maybe talking to me may have been a better approach but my mum is naf at the emotional stuff

Shagmund, thank you for your honesty.

You are likely to have it ignored by many on this thread, who will continue to just repeat, over and over, that they would/could never reach that point, no matter what happened, no matter what the context implicitly suggesting that they are stronger/more able/better parents than you for not experiencing your pain.

Garlic, there is NOTHING I am "betraying" about myself. I am very clear about this. I didn't have a "happy" childhood, but it is not because my mother smacked me.

My father, severely physically abused himself, made a plea never to smack. It was his "last resort". However, he was a rage-filled, desperate, hurting man and while he never raised a hand to us, he spent most of his time either a) falling down drunk (avoiding his feelings) or b) roaring, shouting and being nasty with his words.

My mother, like Shagmund above, was in a desperate situation and sometimes she lost control. Do I think that was great? No. Would I wish to repeat that behaviour? No. Do I think THAT means it is valid/helpful to then say that she "damaged" me (implying, as these sorts of words do, that I have no choice in how I act now?) and that I "hate" her, like a toddler/teenager says they hate their parents.

It is not "weak and immature" to notice that your background can have an influence on you, I agree. I would maintain it is immature to maintain a rigid approach to your parents' suffering and use childish words like "I hate them", "I was smacked once and it was shocking and it has always damaged our relationship" or "I still feel bitter and distant from my mother because once she smacked me".

This is what happens on threads like these. People who remember a painful one-off or irregular event write about it affecting their present functioning as adults when they have full control over how they act. Being smacked/hit/hurt does not mean anything, sorry folks, and it is buying into the idea that it defines you that causes much adult psychopathology.

I emerged from my childhood aware that it was both good and bad, with lovely moments and with terrifying moments. I did well at university and in work. I met a lovely (non-abusive, non-addicted, loving and responsive) man. Life was really fine. Then I had a traumatic birth and in the Western way of things, I started searching searching searching for "why" it had upset me so much. The professionals I dealt with pretty much told me that it was a "normal" birth and nothing to fear (I had a Kielland's forceps birth, with a baby with a low Apgar and I couldn't walk for months after it) and time and time again nodded sympathetically but said my fear was irrational. I started to research it online. Why was I so terrified? Oh it must be that all that stuff I had always been told was true. I WAS defined by my childhood. I hadn't managed to emerge as functional as I thought.

It was THIS that began the suffering that led to a diagnosis. Not the suffering of the past, but my relationship to it in the present, a present in which suffering/fear is something that "betrays" you, that "means something", in which your past defines you.

There is a developing psychological literature on this you know, risk vs resilience and acceptance vs blaming the past for your current relationships.

Maternal mental health is always the dinosaur in the room on threads like these. Yet people quite easily talk about smacking as though it were equivalent to severe abuse and capable of provoking long-standing mental health issues. I really don't believe ANY one off smack in childhood has that capacity, I think it goes against everything that is known about behaviour and how we develop. I do believe that hurt breeds hurt and that the person who prosletyses about how they would never do x because they are above it will have their own peculiar ways of exerting control which may be just as damaging and even more so than smacking.

I have no issue with discussing this because I don't think it betrays me to describe my childhood. It doesn't define me. It doesn't mean, well, anything. Very few people who have not had therapy believe that to be true within our verbal community. We are still reeling from the effects of the Oprah generation where any pain in childhood is a get-out-of-jail-free card for your feelings/behaviour now. I don't buy it.

Working

It's a hard debate to get into really. Made harder when people who say they think some forms of physical discipline are OK are lumped in with abusive parents who batter their children to death with electrical cords. Who has the stamina to argue with people who won't listen and will just call you a child abuser?

As far as I'm concerned the "if you wouldn't do it to an adult then it's wrong to do it to a child" argument is utterly flawed. Adults don't come round and tear your books to pieces, crap on the carpet, or throw food at you. Adults are rational. (Most) adults don't expect to have all their needs met instantaneously or respond with tears and rage. Children are in the process of learning about the world and about boundaries.

"Shagmund - I take it the fact you were seriously worn down each time was contributory?"

Before I started smacking I had three children under six (2 under 2 at one point) and was working. I breezed through it - no problems coping. Then as my youngest got older (at around 4 ish) his autistic traits began to show. Extreme inflexibility, astonishing nuclear tantrums. He has recently (at aged 7) been diagnosed with Aspergers. At this point dd (who had been a very, very easy and happy child) started to move into adolescence. Cue massive moodiness, rudeness, aggression. She is a very strong willed and outspoken - qualities that may serve her well in adulthood and which I would never want to suppress - but which have made her adolescence incredibly challenging for the rest of the family. And then I got ill - physically and emotionally. And had to deal with a massively oppositional pre-teen and an autistic 5 year old, and a middle child who acted up for attention because I was so overwhelmed coping with the other two.

So shit happens - and it impacts on the way you parent. People who say 'I would never' - I'm just saying to you that I said the same thing, and stuck by it for the first 10 years of parenting 3 children....

"Never did me any harm" == Stockholm syndrome in my opinion.

I am one of those who was smacked as a child. Didn't do me any harm. Right... I hit my kid because I was hit. It's a reflex now... Sigh. Apples and trees...

And as for that adults don't tear your papers in a strop la di da. Where do you work? I have seen adults do worse than kids in a nice posh office and no one hits them.

I have known one to jump on tables when annoyed by a phone call.

Working9while5, I cannot tell you how much your comment about denying personal responsibility has pissed me off. Whilst I may be responsible for my actions, the reason behind them is a mental illness, and the reason behind that is partially due to my parents smacking me.

That's not denying my responsibility, that's not refusing to grow up. It's having lived with a severe disorder for many years, without understanding why I act the way I do, then spending a long time rationalising my own behaviors to find the root cause.

It's fantastic for you if your past doesn't define you, but some of us are psychologically incapable of dismissing our pasts, and to make those comments is an insult to the way we struggle. Be it with a diagnosed disorder, or with the relationships with our parents, or anything else.

The fact is the more and more is being learnt about the long term affects of negative parenting choices long term on children. Things like cry it out and smacking, which used to be mainstream, are now being regonised as harmful. With that knowledge, it is entirely logical to say that there are many adults who are struggling with their pasts.

Is the smacking helping shagmund? Because ime it is only ever a temporary fix especially in adolescence. It's more relief/release for the adult...

i think things got polarised again. i don't think working talking about having agency over how we choose to respond to/think about/etc our pasts means she is insulting you sirboobalot or disparaging your need therapy etc. you are exercising that agency by doing something about it - another in your shoes might not have bothered and just continued 'acting out' their issues on others or sitting in a corner crying but refusing to do anything that would change things.

this thread has gotten really combatorial in a way that means things flip from extreme to extreme and people assume the ultimate extreme of what someone says rather than it's reasoned position within a more complex spectrum.

i too had a difficult childhood and have issues as a result of it - the blame lies with my childhood but the solutions and now is my responsibility. i'm a rational reasonably intelligent and independent person therefore i can intercede in those feelings/reactions/behaviours that result from my childhood and resist them at the least or choose another way proactively at best. that doesn't abdicate my mother of responsibility but it gives me my governance over my life now.