Madmouse's open letter to MNHQ about the treatment of those with disabilities on MN

[madmouse]

Dear MNHQ

I joined MN when I was pregnant with my lovely ds. That heady autumn with bump before such words as NICU, neonatal seizures, brain damage, cerebral palsy, speech delay, special school entered my vocabulary.

That was 5 whole years ago - and all that time MN has been a part of my life. Got a lot of support from my ante- and postnatal buddies and from experienced SN mums. Gave back where I could. Became ill with PTSD, found the MH threads, recovered, started to give support on the MH threads.

Now I've come to the point that the only thing stopping me from leaving MN is that I would let down people on the MH threads. Other than that your (MNHQ) behaviour today has been an eye opener and a bit of a final straw.

MN has become, like RL, a place where disabled people and people with disabled children are not safe, not treated equally and not extended the same courtesy and respect as those without disabilities.

What happened today is just a tip of the ice berg. Day in day out threads appear with the same old theme. AIBU to use this disabled space because my baby's maxi cosy is too big and the P&T spaces are full, AIBU to use the wheelchair space on the bus (those two appear weekly by and large), AIBU to think it's nice to be disabled because you get lots of benefits, AIBU to think disabled people have it easy, AIBU to think I should have a free car too seeing as that I pay taxes.

It goes on and on and on. And none of it is ever challenged other than by a small group of us who do all this fighting in RL too - because it affects us and our children.

There is such thing as discrimination. And you do have a duty to stamp it out. Hand off moderation is no excuse certainly seeing how quick you were to delete 2shoes thread when some of us started fighting back against the endless threads of threads which in turn are copies of last week's threads.

I am very disappointed. And I think you have some thinking to do.

Best wishes

The me me me attitude really pisses me off I don't usually post on those threads much just put my views and leave but I'm getting tempted after reading some of the posts since I last looked.

I just want to add my support to madmouse, 2shoes and others. I don't always agree with exactly what they post on all matters but they are always respectful if respect is earned. By sometimes we all need to fight, but we are all tired of fighting.

I will also declare an interest in that i do have a 2 year old with CP, who does not yet need a wheelchair, but who, like madmouse went through NICU. At the time I found mumsnet supprtive, as I did with an earlier miscarriage. I still find bits of SN supportive and occasionally dip in and out of other areas where I can offer support.

However one of the things I do in RL is advise on the Equality Act. And I do often think MN overstpes the boundaries and does allow too much to stand and if I had more fight in me maybe I would take up that fight. But at the moment I don't as I am too busy with dealing with (or fighting) the NHS and a day job.

For professional/legal reasons I don't do FB, and can't see I ever will so if MN does not wake up and see that some of what MN has evolved to be is a place of support, and allow us to support without fear I believe far more people like me may find themselves isolated and alone as the saftey has gone dealing with the crap that the rest of life throws at us, and we will leave. It is a sad reflection of society but a reflection of society nontheless.

Maryz majority of the time I try to live and let live lifes to short and I don't like confrontation.

Morning, folks. Thanks for your patience. We'll do our best to answer your latest Qs now.

To start with, though, just to recap for those who haven't read all the thread...

• We do not tolerate clearly disablist posts on Mumsnet - and will delete them, as soon as we are made aware of them, with no debate, discussion or mitigating pleas.

• We may not, though, delete a post that forms part of a reasonable and valid discussion, if we believe that post was made in genuine and honest ignorance. Instead, we may decide it's best to let it stand and allow others to voice their own, more enlightened, views. However, if the original 'ignorant' poster persists with the same sort of posts after that - ie when they can't possibly be ignorant any more - we would look into deleting/mailing/warning/banning, as appropriate.

• We've always thought it's wrong to adopt a policy of blanket censorship. We feel it's wiser to judge each post that's reported on its individual words and context, and make decisions on a post-by-post basis.

• We agree that we were slow to act on the original two pushchair threads. Unfortunately staff sickness left us on the back foot but we should, at the very least, have posted on the threads to make our stance on disablist views clear.

• The two deleted threads were deleted for different reasons. One because we felt it was deliberately inflammatory; the other (2shoes' one) because it was a thread about a thread. 2shoes: we're sorry you didn't get any satisfactory replies yesterday; I'll look into that today and mail you as soon as poss.

• The current pushchair thread has not been deleted because, as we posted on the thread last night, we believe the OP, who's been an MNer for ages, started it in response to last night's Channel 4 news report and was entirely unaware of the other threads. And, at least the last time we checked, it was a valid discussion, with no disablist content. We have, however, posted on it to remind people that we don't tolerate disablist posts - and we will keep an eye on it today. Please do report to us any posts that concern you.

• And finally, we couldn't refute more passionately any assumption that MN SNers don't matter to us. MNSN is undoubtedly one of the aspects of our MN Community of which we are the most proud. It's one of the things that makes coming into work every morning a truly uplifting experience even when you're mad at us. We may not get everything right all the time but the last thing any of us would dream of doing is make you feel you don't matter to us. If that's the impression any of you have got, we are really sorry.

Just to add another voice to the ones here saying that people are given way too much benefit of the doubt when they are disablist, in a way that doesn't happen with other discrimination.
For this reason I reported three posts on that thread this morning - individually out of context I'd expect MN to say 'oh they were only saying', but in the current context it's not ignorance, it's wilful inconsideration.

Especially if MN is going to pussyfoot round the sensitivities of the McCanns and delete non-libellous content that might 'upset' them. Why don't disabled people get extended the same courtesy?

Tired stressed Mum with shopping? What about the tired, stressed, minimum wage carer pushing a grown adult plus shopping?

Disabled people have rights, carers are seen as an appendage to the chair user/disabled person. Maybe the carer has been working 12 hour shifts back to back to provide continuity of care (I've nowt against agency staff per se but they generally tend to be chocolate teapot when it comes to anything other than the basics because they don't know the residents) and doesn't want to spend ten more minutes in the pissing down rain just because a service user decided they fancied going out for a coffee.

And we haven't even started on all the parents and spouses acting as unpaid carers all over the country.

You think it's hard wrangling a toddler plus buggy plus shopping? Try it when your cute toddler is a 20 year old adult and tell me folding your buggy is hard work

Totally agree NC
If some of us had the access to expensive legal representation like the mccanns and g ford then this shit would not be let stand
Shame on you mn

Carers are the lowest of the low in this society.
And on mn it appears

Add fathers for justice to your list, yet disaist comments are tollerated.

@ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough

Add fathers for justice to your list, yet disaist comments are tollerated.

No they are not, ASillyPhase. Please see our post just a few moments ago.

And as for their constant excuses "staff sicmness left us on the back foot",other times it is "our mail software is [with incredibly bad timing] on a go slow" yadada yadada yadada.Bare minimum staff overnight etc.
All are excuses for not employing enough staff,to keep MN costs down and MN profits higher.

It makes me sick, it really does.
Have been an mn regular (with a couple of name changes) for 5years but this attitude by mnhq is making me question my membership.
So very sad.
Mnsn section and home ed section has helped me so much - my son woudnt be where he is now without the help and advice I gained on here.
I have people I count as friends on my post natal thread and some of the humorous threads are truly eye wateringly funny.
I will miss that :(

@amillionyears

And as for their constant excuses "staff sicmness left us on the back foot",other times it is "our mail software is [with incredibly bad timing] on a go slow" yadada yadada yadada.Bare minimum staff overnight etc. All are excuses for not employing enough staff,to keep MN costs down and MN profits higher.

We're not making excuses, amillionyears. They were two genuine reasons for our less-than-ideal response time but we do - and have - apologise fully.

MNHQ :None of your posts are answering the questions being asked are they?
Why does mn tolerate openly disability bashing?
I am sure we could all find threads or posts in the last month that mn have let stand.
Is that what we have to do?
Actually list the offensive threads?
Oh sorry I forgot we can't, we are busy dealing with the issues and realities that sn and sen bring to our lives.....

@Badvoc

It makes me sick, it really does. Have been an mn regular (with a couple of name changes) for 5years but this attitude by mnhq is making me question my membership. So very sad. Mnsn section and home ed section has helped me so much - my son woudnt be where he is now without the help and advice I gained on here. I have people I count as friends on my post natal thread and some of the humorous threads are truly eye wateringly funny. I will miss that :(

What attitude, Badvoc? Do please tell us what in our most recent post makes your question your membership. We'd like to be able to reassure you.

Last I saw the post I reported still stands.

Marking place to read more on this important OP later.

You are foreever having "less than ideal response times" .
That is my point.
You can give us 10 different excuses,reasons,call them what you like,and keep on apologising,but the bottom line is,you are still not employing enough staff.

@Badvoc

MNHQ :None of your posts are answering the questions being asked are they? Why does mn tolerate openly disability bashing? I am sure we could all find threads or posts in the last month that mn have let stand. Is that what we have to do? Actually list the offensive threads? Oh sorry I forgot we can't, we are busy dealing with the issues and realities that sn and sen bring to our lives.....

No, we have just said that we do not tolerate disablist postings.

And that, from now on, we will be more vigilant about going onto thread and reinforcing that stance.

If there are threads or posts we have mistakenly let stand in the past month, we would be happy to revisit them. As we've said, we don't go in for blanket censorship of certain topics (though, God knows, that would be easier) so we have to weigh up each reported post in context. We acknowledge that we're not perfect and that we have much to learn but we'd like to think we're always open to your questions and responsive to your feedback.

@ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough

Last I saw the post I reported still stands.

I haven't seen your report, ASillyPhase, but I will go and have a look and see where it is in our inbox.

Thanks. Apparently someone disabled @hould have been assaulted according to the post I reported.

Sigh. You say that you are "proud"of the sn/sen section on MN"
We are not here to make you or anyone else proud Helen, not even MN.
We are here to try and forge a place - albeit a virtual one - that is safe for us. Where people understand, where we can share advice, tips and info. where we can laugh at things others would deem unfunny I.e. our struggles with our kids sn/sen and others reaction to it.
We are not here to "educate" the ignorant and bigoted. Sorry.
Do you tell other section users (like the stately homes thread) that offensive posts are let stand so that others can be "educated" about childhood abuse? I don't think so.
Does that answer your question?

@Maryz

You see, I wouldn't be half as upset over this if they hadn't deleted 2shoes' thread so quickly - within 2 hours it was gone, the others were/are there for days.

If her thread had stayed, we could have had a rant from the other side.

I actually don't mind the light moderation - I don't even mind so much leaving some nasty comments, as long as we are allowed to call people on what they say, and tell them exactly how offensive they are.

The trouble is so-called "light" moderation only works if it works both ways.

Leave the bus threads if you like. But allow people to educate on them - including allowing us to call people selfish, self-centred and ignorant, if that is what they are. And allow threads like 2shoes' to show the "other side".

It does sound as though the timing was unfortunate, Maryz. But I am sure as sure can be that it wasn't deliberate (not our style, as we'd hope you'd know).

And calling people selfish, self-centred and ignorant, while very possibly true, would be making personal attacks. We're sure you could find other ways to phrase those points, though.