Speaking at Unicef conference on "Mumsnet and feeding: What are women talking about?" Help needed:)

[carriemumsnet]

I'm giving a talk at the UNICEF UK Baby Friendly Initiative Annual Conference next week in Liverpool and could do with some help. The title is "Mumsnet and feeding: What are women talking about?" and I want to give examples of best and worst practice.

I don't want it to turn into a 'them and us' experience and be over critical, but at the same time I want to give an honest reflection of people's experiences of deciding whether to breast or bottle feed, trying to carry on breastfeeding, starting feeding, weaning etc - and a highlight what helped you, what worked, what we can encourage and how we can work together with health professionals - as well as give examples of worst practice, and case studies of what absolutely doesn't work and needs to be addressed.

If there's anything else you'd like me to say in addition to this, please feel free to post it here. I can't guarantee I'll include everything, but it's always useful to have anecdotes and experiences for the Q and A session!

If anyone's attending the conference - do come and say hello - it'll be good to see a (hopefully) friendly face:)

I think the most important thing is that people should tell the truth. Tell mothers that if you are going to bf, it pretty much takes over their lives for the first few months and they should be prepared with a big pile of books and a lot of dvds. I knew, because a friend had warned me, but I think in the desire to (rightly) encourage bfing, the reality gets glossed over and contributes to why so many give up.

Really good point - I've already got in my talk that they need to say it hurts at first till you all get used to it - sometimes even if you're doing it right, or if you've done it wrong and then do it right. Know some disagree, but if you warn folks it might hurt a bit at the beginning, but once you both get the hang it becomes really easy, I think they might persevere more. Do shout though if you disagree - that was just a personal view!

It didn't hurt me - only problem (more or less) was getting them to stop at 4.5 and 6 yrs (yes, that's right !) respectively.

Lots of discussion on BLW thread ATM.
Wise voices (like mine?) suggesting perhaps there might be a middle path rather than all these extremes !
HTH !

I wouldn't say it definitely hurts at first- I'd heard so many horror bf stories that I was more afraid of bfing than of giving birth! For me it didn't hurt at all and we had no problems, so my fears were unnecessary. I'd say it may well hurt, but doesn't for everyone.

A piece of advice from me- eat and drink LOTS in the first few weeks, it made a huge difference to how bfing went for me.

Good luck carrie :)

No, it didn't hurt me either.

Thanks that's really useful, keep the thoughts coming and do feel free to link to other threads if you think I should look elsewhere ..

I had an entirely positive bfing experience, including continuing as an 'extended' bfer through work and overseas travel. But what I hear, and read, is that health professinals are just not consistent between themselves, and with policy. Indeed, some seem to make up policy telling mums 'oh, the advice will be changing to x'

I found advice on returning to work and bfing very, very, poor - the NCT told me 'oh, you don't want to go back to work that early', others 'you won't be able to express that much'. No practical advice on how to make it work.

The thing that helped me the most was the support I received. The midwives came out to see me whenever I called (although at routine visits, it wasn't the great specialist BF midwife, and the normal one gave crap advice. You could tell she really didn't know much about BF).
When I went to the clinic as I was having trouble, the health visitor referred me to a health trainer who came to my house and sat and discussed feeding with me for a few hours, and gave me some invaluable advice. She also called to check on how I was doing every week.

The local surestart centre has a meeting every week with LLL peer supporters and a BF counsellor employed by the council.

I'd have probably given up if it weren't for such a comprehensive support group.

I don't know if this is the sort of thing you want (feel free to ignore me if not :)) but I would like to see Tongue tie checks introduced alongside other newborn checks, possibly as part of the Baby Friendly Initiative.
When my DS was born, none of the mw's recognised his Tongue tie, even though it was very obvious, and told me it was simply a short Tongue. They and the paediatrician said that TT's never cause problems with breastfeeding. Just a quick look on the breastfeeding boards proves this to be untrue.
I would like to see baby friendly hospitals (and beyond) recognising that TT can play a major role in breastfeeding problems, and educate hospital staff so that this easily remedied issue can be solved right at the start.
Again, please ignore me if this isn't the sort of thing you were after, it's a bit of a bugbear of mine :)

I think it's worth mentioning that though the NHS spends lots of money on posters saying "Breast is Best", once a baby arrives, most MWs and HVs have very little actual training in breastfeeding and will often encourage new mums to switch to formula at the first sign of any deviation from the norm. This includes for things that are physiologically normal in newborns, such as mild jaundice. So to sum up - pre birth the pressure is on expectant mums to breastfeed. Post birth the pressure is on new mums to formula feed.

I certainly felt pressurised by HCPs to formula feed but was bloody minded enough and had enough support around me to seek out a local breastfeeding support group run by two HVs. Unfortunately they were victims of their own success - it shows how poor support is that women travelled from all over Birmingham to visit this one support group because there was no support more local to them.

what helped me? family, my mother breastfed and it was always my main option, but I struggled and nearly gave up, having a supportive husband was crucial.
hospital support was abysmal and made me cry, several times for the first 4 days I was there
'you must give a bottle or your baby will die, she is not feeding properly' at 3am
a kindly elderly agency nurse who barely spoke English helped me syringe feed

me shouting at the top of my voice after the 3rd day that I wanted someone who actually gave a fig about breastfeeding and knew what she/he was talking about ,to come to my room NOW, it worked, wish I did not have to do that

husband getting an expressing thing for me to use at the hospital and calling BF helplines who reassured us enormously

encouraging breastfeeding I would say, promote healthy body image for girls, educate boys.
support people before pregnancy throughout pregnancy and after the baby is born, those first few weeks are zombieland and we need all the support we can get.
speak the truth about the possible struggles and difficulties and present helpful suggestions to resolve them, listen and assist.

Totally agree about tongue-tie. Get people trained! Paediatricians, midwives, GPs and HVs. All of them. Ruthlessly trained to within an inch of their lives NOT to say "What's tongue-tie? Oh that shouldn't affect breastfeeding."

The mish-mash of "advice" from HCPs was something I found very hard to deal with postnatally. There simply needs to be more expert help available. You've got a large group of basically willing women who need help, often don't know that they will need help, and then don't get it - in fact sometimes get the opposite of help. It's infuriating.

I would like to have some work done to dispel all the bf myths, from if your breasts don't feel full then your mik hasn't come in, to don't feed to sleep, bf is fine for 6 months but then your baby doesn't get enough iron, if you bf a baby with teeth you will be bitten, bf in public is fine as long as it's discreet, you can't bf and conceive, bf is fine until 6m/9m/1y then it's a bit urgh.

I would love this to be done as a public health campaign, not particularly targetting any groups. IMO these things that "everyone knows" cause a hell of a lot of harm.

start with this heartwarming story? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/1343029-Told-off-for-breastfeeding-on-the-bus

Yes, definitely mention that women should be told that bf can be incredibly painful at first; I had been told by sil about a '2 minute toecurler' as she called it but nothing prepared me for how painful it was and I gave up after about 2 weeks. Still feel terrible about it but that, combined with the lack of bf support on the postnatal ward, is why I am actually dreading giving birth in April. I wasnt allowed to go home until I had demonstrated that dd had fed adequately (fair enough) but there was nobody there to help me or show me what to do. It was 3 days of hell.

This time round I want to use formula just so I dont have to stay on that stinking, noisy, overcrowded ward trying to breastfeed and failing. I'd have stood a better chance at home, with a woman who could tell me and show me what to do.

What helped me most was the practical support from my midwives (daily visits for the first fortnight which was amazing but I don't think I could have managed without) and from the local bf cafe, which I also went to when I was pregnant. I had thankfully lined up support before I had the baby. I think the problem is that quick intervention is imperative - a baby needs to feed 8 times a day or so. So once they have gone (say) 12 hours or so without feeding that is a big problem - but what are you supposed to do if they can't/won't latch on? Most support can't be accessed within 12 hours, especially if you don't know where to get it from in the first place.

And whilst ideally this would be done in an ante natal ward, my experience of the ward was so dire I was desparate to get out - with the result that bf wise I probably came out too early - despite spending 3 days there bf was definitely not 'established'. But they were so desparate for beds that I don't think they would have kept me in even if I had wanted it, until I was happy and confident with feeding, which took at least 10 days.

The pain (which can come at any time, not just at the very beginning) can be overcome by stubborness If you want to give up, do so, but in my personal experience, staying pigheaded about it and putting mind over matter WILL get you through to 'the other side'. And then it becomes easy.

It is soooooooo much easier than bottle feeding so worth doing. The way forward for lazy/busy mums.

Find mothers who are comfortable being watched breastfeeding and watch how it is done, both before and after the birth. We learn through example, we are humans, we observe...so why not apply this to breastfeeding? Just because we don't all live in communal family homes any more shouldn't mean the natural way of feeding should become a mystery or an embarrassment.

I think perhaps being more open about the various pitfalls. That way women will know when to ask for help.

With DS1, I actually had little idea how to BF. the MW had asked me how I intended to feed but that's all that was mentioned about it. No mention of how it's done, when to call for help etc.
I educated myself with DS2.

Himalaya yay! Thanks for linking my thread :) I'm so glad it's made loads of people happy.

Generally I found there was very little support in the post-natal ward with any aspect of looking after my new first baby. There was very little point me being there except they wanted to keep an eye that everything settled down physically wise after the birth.

Fortunately I'd been to a very good talk and demo (with doll) about BFing by NCT BF counsellor as part of NCT ante-natal classes. And even more fortunately DD seemed to get the idea straight away. BFing was established within the first ten minutes. Yay ! Possibly birth and BFing are the most successful things I've ever done !!
But as I said virtually no support with looking after baby or with BFing in the hospital.

I would like to see balanced and fair advice on feeding children.

Not throwing a load of pamphlets at women with the advantages of bfing, then leaving them feeling inadequate if they don't manage to bf.

Especially when the advice is so disconnected from the actual support offered.

I will PM you, Carrie, as I blogged about this recently.

First every experience is different and the right latch is crucial for successful feeding, support groups and perhaps a bfing mother at ante natal would be good with a tiny baby.

It's normal to feed a lot to establish bf.

Bottle feeding is not easier, it's different, washing and heating bottles is just as much a pita as bfing at first, well more so.

actually, Wellies point about putting mind over matter WILL get you through to 'the other side'. is the sort of comment that doesn't help mums who are struggling to bf. I'm incredibly stubborn and determined and spent 5 weeks in agony trying to get it right - it was far more painful than anything I had ever anticipated. Possibly it could have been overcome with help and support, but there wasn't any available, or certainly none that was signposted to me

I think it would be worth mentioning that sometimes giving formula is the right and only thing to do, and all the horror stories that if you don't give the baby a bottle it will die sometimes have some truth to them. I come at this feom the perspective of a mum who had a baby at 29+3 and did manage to breastfeed but I am very very unusual for a mum with a baby that premature. Sometime the doctors do know best and sometimes the babies do just need more calories than BM can give.

Other things I would add my hospital had a lactation consultant, I found out about her while still on the postnatal ward as a result of a conversation with the woman who hired out breatpumps. The hosptials should make the exsitance of such people well known, as well as make it clear to women how to find them.

Also can all baby friendly hospitals make all women who can breastfeed, and may be willing to express know how to donate BM. Please. Preferably before the babies are born rather than as something else to think baout afterwards.

Finally and while I am on my soapbox as the mother of a prem, I would say BLW is a good idea, but some dieticians recommend that purees are better, again for good reason. And we should all listen to the experts rather than internet talkboards.

I think breastfeeding needs to be normalised - in the media, on TV, in real life, everywhere.

And I mean for older babies and children too, not just newborns.

All too often it's portrayed as weird or freaky.
Or something that's difficult or impossible to achieve.
Or something that midwives push on mothers, but mothers don't really want to do.
Also:
It makes you frumpy and unattractive, and gives you saggy boobs. And men won't fancy you any more.
And you get harrassed if you do it in public.
And you baby will never sleep through the night.
And you can't drink booze.
And you can't get your figure back
Etc etc etc.
I've found know of these assumptions / generally held 'facts' to be true.

You rarely hear the truth, or the positive side (apart from the health benefits which everyone knows).