Has anyone got a 4x4?

[momof2]

We have just decided to get rid of our faithful Hippo (Nissan Micra) and branch out into the uncertain world of much larger family cars.
I have been looking at a discovery or freelander - please note all old ones not new.
Has anyone any experience of how good/bad they are please? Or any 4x4's they would recommend or MPV's
Many thanks

Blu also sorry about your friend, and god willing for a speedy recovery....

But I think what irritates 4x4 drivers is the generalisation of lack of safety in the context of the following:

"Well it's interesting to note that the Volvo XC90 which is the 4x4 that I intend to buy scores 2 stars for pedestrian safety and thus outperforms many 'small family cars' so beloved of anti 4x4 campaigners including:

Peugeot 306 = 1*
Audi A3 = 1*
Renault Megane = 1*
Vauxhall Astra = 1*
Audi A2 = 1*
Renault Kangoo = 1*

Infact the Ford Focus only gets 2* which is equivalent to the XC90

(from Euro NCAP Crash Tests) "

...from a previous post.

Truth is that at 25mph the shape of the vehicle is much more important, crash test are very good indicators to real collisions. Vehicles like taxis and vans fair very badly in pedestrian collisions too.

Gosh Blu, really sorry to read that about your friend. how awful.

I think we're about to get a 4x4. Is a Toyota RAV4 a 4x4? I think it might be. I don't have any justification for buying one, we just needed a bigger car, went to Toyota as we already that brand car and wanted to give them our old one as part exchange. It was the only car we liked that worked for us as a family and I felt safe in it etc etc.

I hate huge cars and couldn't drive anything really big but this just felt like a very suitable car for us. I've never even really thought about it being a 4x4, but I think it is one. I'm ruibbish on cars tbh. It's only a very little 4x4. Soupie called it the Chav4 rather than the Rav4 so we're certainly not buying it to look cool or anything like that.

I really am so sorry about your friend Blu.

I think compulsory crash test results on cars in showrooms are a great idea.

it is a 4x4, but a small one. I think that one gets two stars for pedestrian safety too, so def less offensive than some 4x4s. At the end of the day though, it's your family you want to protect first.

On reflection the kangoo and the Doblo are basically vans which is why they fare so badly, they are very heavy as I guess they are required to be for load carrying whih is why we bought ours, I don't think there were any ncap results out at the time as it was new.

At least i've had a good idea ion here redeem myself a teensy bit from behaving badly on my londoners thread

Not sure countering one outbreak of bad behaviour with evidence of another is the best way to proceed.

Agree with that blu.

I certainly haven't called anyone any names and still haven't seen any really good reasons for having one. Unless you are a farmer. But that is life isn't it? You can't make someone think what you think, but it is an interesting discussion.

Gizmo - I was thinking of that question myself this morning, actually.

I spent a few weeks in the children's ward at King's, as DS was having a series of ops, and you see a lot of very confronting things in children's wards. I talked a lot to a Mum whose 9 year-old was in for months and months, and by then, on his 14th operation to patch him up having been hit by a motorbike doing about 50mph, on a zebra crossing outside his school.

I was aghast, and expected her to be beside herself with rage, but she was quite controlled. She said that accidents happen, and that the biker had been distraught when it happened, was shaking and throwing up and weeping, and had been 100% open in the court case about his guilt, and she actually sympathised with him. I DO feel phiosophical that accidents happen, and am a person quite free of vengeful feelings, i thinki, but in her position I WOULD I thnk, be full of anger that he had been going so fast. His speed must have been a huge contributory factor to the accident itself and the extent of the poor lads injuries.

So I THINK that I accept accidents, but am angry about the contributory factors. And the thing that the specialist said was that it was the high-up straight front of the vehicle that caused the nature of my freinds injuries. Car-shaped mercs and beemers may well be big and heavy, but they still impact at knee-ish level and scoop you over the top.

And this was in inner-city London, where 4x4's are frequently driven for show, so yes, i thiink i am angry that she was hit by a 4x4 like that.

That is not a comment on the caring responsible people who drive them out of necessity in the country, but here in London - oh, and those who career them along bridleways in the country for a bit of gung ho fun- yes, I'd happily see the whole lot crushed to rubble.

Blu - gotcha. Thank you for your thoughts.

It's a tough call, isn't it? None of us are going to set out to cause accidents like this and most of us would be beyond horror if we did. Maybe that's why we don't always want to think too hard about the impact of our cars in that situation.

Still, willful ignorance is no defence in my book, so that's another set of criteria I'm going to have to take into account. Or maybe I'll just stick with the trusty bicycle. Difficult to get a windsurfing board on it, mind...

My husband is a forensic crash investigator ie he goes to the serious and fatal crashes, so I asked him for his opinion on this debate, maybe hoping for some statistics or something.

He stated the drivers of 4x4s feel well protected because of the big/high driving position ie. the safer you feel, the worse you drive.

He said to think of it this way - if you had a big spike pointing at you from your steering wheel you would drive so carefully, because you didn't feel safe.

Also, on a clear, dry bright day like today, he will attend lots of dead bodies in roads because people feel safe and drive with less care (follow on to feeling safe in big sturdy cars), whereas if there's a bit of snow on the ground he will have a quiet day as people are driving more cautiously, thinking they are not as safe.

I know it doesn't have a bearing on the original post but wondered if this thinking helps anyone's view of the debate.

Oh and he nearly had a seizure when I mentioned bull bars on big cars. "Manufacturers of cars spend millions making their cars as safe as possible and then some idiot adds some steel bars to the front, so a child end up getting hit by steel bars instead of softer bumpers".

"and still haven't seen any really good reasons for having one".

Tempted to start a thread entitled:

"Peugeot 306 owners, Renault megane owners, Audi A2 / A4 owners justify / provide really good reasons for your 1 star pedestrian safety vehicle"

An aside, - what an amazing woman the mother of that 9 yr old boy is Blu

I've often thought a large metal spike on a steering wheel, rather than an airbag, would be a valuable safety addition.

Fortunately I do not, as yet, rule the world.

emmatom,

I'm pretty sure that nobody here has a bull bar....

Is that an argument for having one HMC??

Well I don't have a car. And as Blu said earlier -

Not sure countering one outbreak of bad behaviour with evidence of another is the best way to proceed.

hmc's Times link includes this which is borne out by what emmatom's DH says.

When seatbelt wearing became compulsory there were initially more accidents because of driver complacency.

Blu, I am very sorry about your friend.

It might also be that they are more challenging to drive in high risk situations such as severe breaking, cornering as they don't behave like cars with a lower centre of gravity or 2wd with ABS etc and have longer stopping distances

Quite simply weesaidie, I am pointing out why should one group of cars be totally singled out for vilification to the exclusion of all others - just blatant prejudice imo.

There are some 4x4's that don't have a good safety record, and I wouldn't buy one but others are perfectly acceptable and it's inappropriate, and in my view quite lazy and slapdash to make generalisations

Blimey - I'm beginning to see this matter as a civil liberties issue!

and I am not sure what you are saying here:
"Not sure countering one outbreak of bad behaviour with evidence of another is the best way to proceed"

.. I have conducted myself in exemplary fashion throughout this discussion (she says with a hint of indignation and sounding perhaps a little pompous)

emmatom - all v intersting.

I too think that a big spike is a v good idea. and I might imagine one each time I hop into my car.

Thank you all for good wishes re my friend. They had hoped to bring her round, but her body goes into some kind of state and she tries to yank out all the tubes. Don't know about her leg, but this week I haven't heard her family say she will lose it, so maybe it is ok . BUT she now has a chest infection and is on a ventilator. .

Execllent posts Blu, you have kept your cool admirably in the face of some specious arguments (not all, I hasten to add). I am so sorry your friend is no better.

"Not sure countering one outbreak of bad behaviour with evidence of another is the best way to proceed"
it was a small observation about the name-calling, in an exchaneg with J2, That's all.

I did wonder whether anti 4wd feeling was more prevalent in some areas than others, as here i don't think I've heard it mentioned only seen it in weekend papers media generally tending to refer to Chelsea tractors but then of course warwickshire ius the natural habitat of the 4x4

I don't think I got into name calling either?

if I did I apologise for any offence caused as it wasn't intended.

Just to clarify:

Didn't mean you to justify the comment Blu, hadn't read it as personally directed, but did reinterpret it that way when coming from weesaidie in response to my post....

Blu, keep us posted on your friend...

I thought it was more a comment on people trying to deflect the problems with 4x4s. Like saying, 'oh well I don't smoke', or 'other cars are bad too.' Sorry!

I apologise if I have been 'lazy and slapdash' and I think I will bow out now. I don't think there is much point and I am already very tense (having just given up smoking).