Another moan about boys' clothes... so annoyed!

[snowleopard]

Firstly MIL, bless her heart, sends DS World Cup England kit for his birthday. He is 1, and we live in Scotland... luckily she also bought the wrong size and put the receipt in so I had every excuse to exchange it. They don't even sell the England stuff here so I had to get something different. Hurrah, £15 to spend in M&S on something nice for DS.

What do I find - for 1-year-olds - a load of stuff with not only endless skulls and crossbones, but, and I quote:

"I'm trouble"
"Tiny but trouble"
"Trouble-maker"
"Bad"
"Bad attitude"

etc etc ad nauseam. OK I have seen this kind of thing around and I've always hated it but M&S?? On practically their whole range??? Are they mad? Why don't they just write "self-fulfilling prophecy" and "boys are little wankers" and have done with it?

. I shall be writing to head office... (when I've done the squijillion other things waiting to be done after getting back from holiday... :))

But khaki is a PRACTICAL colour. Like navy or brown or black. & dpm is indeed worn by birdwatchers.

I can just about understand the objections if the khaki/dpm clothes came with military style logos, but you can't just recoil from EVERY khaki item on offer.

I've just bought dd a set of t-shirt & trousers from Next. Trousers are khaki & baggy & fit beautifully over Smug Washable Nappies. T-shirt shows a rather jolly looking crocodile. They came from the boys' range because I had too-small gifts to exchange & was avoiding the pink-o-rama of 'Little Jailbait' slogans on the other side of the shop...

...oh & I also bought her rather a nice khaki sundress. Do hope she doesn't become a war-crazed psycho as a result.

"AGRESSIVE KILLING MACHINES"

Parpity parpity parp parp parp my God you will have me parping until the cows come home.

Yes they are trained to be like this under certain circumstances like when some sweet innocent person has blown there friends to pieces all over the road taking several of the innocent children with them (they probably deserved it though wearing slogan t-shirts).

Sorry if I sound flipant but your little speach is way off the mark and considering this is supposed to be a thread about kiddies clothes I think you had better start another thread to air your disgust about the war, I suspect you also hate police officers and would object to your child playing dress up in their uniform or what about cowboys and indians.

God I think I might have to parp myself this is getting so boring, I just can't be bothered.

PARP PARP PARP PARP

They are aggressive killing machines, that is what soldiers are for. Doh. And if you are really swallowing the myth that soldiers in Iraq are all there doing good and only hurt people in retaliation, then double doh. And parp as well.

No problem with the police, kids' aggressive games, which are natural, or indeed khaki.

Oh dear so I'm not some extreme weirdy beardy nutcase and I still don't like the war! What could be wrong?

paaarrp.

And yes you're right it probably does belong on another thread, but that didn't stop you weighing in...

snowleopard, i don't like the war (wars) too. and I don't like to be fooled by big companies either, who are targeting small children as really desirable consumers.

Snowleopard, my brother is in the RAF. He wears camouflage when on active duty. Is he an agressive killing machine? No, FFS, he's a sodding mechanic! He's never killed a soul! How about the medics? Are they aggressive killing machines too just because they wear camouflage gear?

When people think camouflage is worn only by fighting soldiers, I think assuming they're thick is perfectly understandable.

You will notice snowlepord that I did parp myself at the end of my post because I realised that I was continuing this ridiculous conversation on and I even stated I was bored with it. However as other people do appear happy to continue I shall too.

One thing that annoys me is that you are grouping all camouflage wearing people in to one big nasty mean aggressive killing machine basket as if being in the army is the worst thing that anyone could possibly do. It is almost like assuming all muslims are terrorists and let us just remember that it was soliders who fought to give you the freedom of speach that you now enjoy, surely that can not be so bad.

Had to buy kids clothes today, and this thread amde me take a closer look.

There was indeed a lot of Kahki and a lot of slogans. The slogans annoyed me immensely 'bad and getting worse'- I mean, FFS! hardly something to be proud of. But every shop that had these stocked both plain t-shirts and cahracter ones such as Thomas- can anyone be offended by Thmas (bored I can go with mind you...) so although the choice was severelt limited, there were oprions. Some lovely ones actually- Asda had some gorgeous blue checked kids shorts in the younger boys range, very 'proper' looking indeed LOL!

RE: the camouflage, I don't choose it as I don't find it attractive and Sam does have aggression isues anyway. However, to simply say that solidiers are justa ggressive killing machines, or war is evil- ! It si SO much more complex than that. Where would we be without those who fought WW2, just as an example? The UN forces are so important in their peace keeping role. There may be some bad eggs who should be rooted out, but that doesn't make the majority bad at all.

If my lads chhoose the forces I shall be petrified that they will come to harm. I will also be proud as punch.

flutterbee - similar vein.

Message withdrawn

I knew you'd get it

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I didn't say that soldiers are just aggressive killing machines - and of course we owe a lot to them. But we do because they stepped in at a time when nothing but physical force would work. Sadly. At the moment, I'm of the opinion that that force is being used unnecessarily and wrongly.

The point is, war is a deeply unpleasant, horrific aspect of our society, and just because we might be grateful to soldiers or admire them even, doesn't mean it's something that should be glorified and draped over our innocent little boys as if it's something they should aspire to! we should all be trying to avoid and condemn and shun war and warlike behaviour, it should be an absolute last resort.

Yes camouflage is used for birdwatching. But oddly I have never a seen a little boys' camouflage jacket with a "where's that wagtail?" slogan on it and I have seen many saying "border patrol", "unit 08", "army issue" and other such depressing stuff.

Some peole may not think this matters, but it really does. Because boys are failing in our schools. Because over 90% of violent crime is committed by, and on, young men. We should be absolutely horrified by anything that labels a little 1-year-old boy as trouble, bad or warlike.

Imagine if your boy went to school and you dropped in one day and found him in a group labelled "naughty, mischievous, trouble, bad and getting worse" and you asked why, what has he done. And they said oh nothing, it's just because of his gender. That is what we are doing. It is not just a bit of fun, it's a horrible, nasty and deeply damaging message to give to little boys. Yes there is other stuff available - but boys can still see it on the racks, on each other, in people's general attitude to them.

ANYway - I did phone M&S (because I know it will be ages before I get round to writing a letter) and got a good response - the woman was understanding and took what I said on board and said it would be passed on.

How about distintly designer clique Dior?

i Do think the slogans are harmful

I also think censoring childrens clothing is harmful- what about a right to freedom of choice / speech? That IS what the people fought for.

Oh come on, of course we censor things. Do you really mean you wouldn't mind seeing children's clothes with obscene pictures, racist and nazi slogans, openly sexual content? They are banned because they are damaging - I'm just arguing that I think the "trouble" slogans are damaging too.

I think that everyone on here is just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, as with most threads on MN.

I will however stick by my original post on here that the childish and bitchy comments that were made earlier in no way helped the discussion and should in my opinion be left for in the playground.

Parp parp and parp again.

what is parp? is it something to do with the beano

or this: (googled)

eclectech : the sound of parpingParp! A peurile parping animation about brussel sprouts. This animation requires the Flash media player. It can be downloaded free directly from Macromedia ...

No, it's a Mumsnet term for (roughly speaking) "I'm so angry I may say something I regret and am not prepared to argue about this anymore"

thank you, i thought it meant something else

I think it sounds like one of those old fashioned car horns with the squeezy bulb.

We had dress up day at DSs nursery today and a couple of the little boys were dressed as Action Man, complete with the hard hat thingy, and they looked cute.

I think that the "Aggressive Killing Machine" line is crap. Soldiers risk their lives every day to do their duty to our country and for that we should be greatful. If either of my sons wanted to sign up to our Army I would be very proud of them (although spend the rest of my days worried sick that they would be hurt)

Yes camouflage is used for birdwatching. But oddly I have never a seen a little boys' camouflage jacket with a "where's that wagtail?" slogan on it and I have seen many saying "border patrol", "unit 08", "army issue" and other such depressing stuff.

But that's not entirely the issue. Greensleeves said that it was offensive, irresponsible and despicable to dress a small boy in camouflage (not 'camouflage saying "border patrol", "unit 08" or "army issue"'), and later came back and added khaki to the list of things that were irresponsible and despicable.

Is it really offensive, irresponsible and despicable that my DS has several pairs of plain khaki trousers (nothing slightly militaristic about them apart from, supposedly, the colour which is, ffs, a PRACTICAL COLOUR FOR SMALL CHILDREN)?

Was it irresponsible and despicable of me to buy him a blue camouflage print sunhat when it was bloody sunny out, we didn't have a hat with us and it was the only one I could find anywhere? Should I have let him burn instead -- would that have been the responsible thing to do?

Greensleeves says that both of these things are offensive, irresponsible and despicable (not probably a bad idea, not something she disagrees with -- offensive, irresponsible and despicable. And she came baack and repeated those words several times, so it's not as if it was a clumsy expression in the heat of the moment). I very much hope that's not what she meant, but it's what she said. And I'd like to think it's not what you meant, snowleopard, when you said "I'm with you all the way Greensleeves", but the way this thread is going, who knows anymore.

As it happens, I'm (broadly) with you on the war and the military. I wouldn't, personally, dream for an instant of buying DS a soldier costume or a full camouflage outfit, or anything that said "border patrol", "unit 08" or "army issue". But apparently that doesn't matter because his khaki trousers are offensive and despicable anyway.

Parpity-parp-parp.

Am I the only one who now really wants a 'Where's that wagtail?' t-shirt?