He doesn't want to do oral

[Whyohwhy18]

Name change...
we've been together for 10years now and he's never gone down on me. He expects oral from me which I enjoy so it's ok. From the beginning of our relationship he's always said he can't do it even without trying.... I really want him too.

Familymanhusband - I don't honestly think there is ANY way of telling a partner their genitals are not attractive to you that won't demolish their self esteem and sex drive for you. That's the only way I can see that ending, sexuality is already "hush hushed" enough. To be told anything negative about ones genitals that are just part of the natural way that person was born would be humiliating beyond belief. So I wouldn't suggest it. If they are beyond persistant - your answer has to be a broad "I don't like it period" versus "I just don't like yours".

I'm a 31 year old woman, and while I am currently in a long term partnership with a man, being bisexual I've dated both and to be frank - I've seen women on this very thread say things to me that an ex girlfriend told me when I broke it off with her. Having only dated men up to this point (early 20s at the time), I had always had my boyfriends tell me vetbally (and physically) how I has literally "perfect".

So imagine my humiliation when another woman that I still cared very much for (fell out of love, it happens) when she starts spewing vitriol at me whilst packing her bags about my "disgusting" vulva. I was angry. I asked her what was wrong with me, and she answered "You're a 23 year old woman and yet you look pre pubescent" Horrified hearing this naturally. She also said that I didn't look like a "real woman" because my inner labia do not extend past my labia majora at all. So I went to the internet and found post after post about how a "real man" wants a woman that looks like a woman. The "porn star pussy" had to GO. I've never had surgery in my life, I was humiliated and horrified.

I didn't let another partner get close to or look at my vulva for the next few years. It wasn't until I met my current SO who was so gentle and understanding of my insecurity, when he told me it was part of me so how could it not be beautiful, I finally dropped the wall. That was 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did - he gives great oral But to this day Ill about twice a year ask him if he's sure that I "look woman enough".

So I know how damaging being told you're damaged or wrong can be. It seems like the "not a real woman" thing is still getting thrown around by woman complaining about men being critical of THEIR vulvas. I've learned that usually this is a knee jerk statenent thrown out without thought due to a hurt that woman is carrying around her own insecurities, so as I've gotten older I've tried to not let those types of comments hurt me personally.

Ironically...my OWN personal preference is for a woman with longer inner labia...I think they look really pretty personally

@ExceptionFatale

It just goes to show that we all have different preferences and I'm sorry that had that experience.

I got told by an ex that my performance was poor (in less polite language) whilst actually DTD !!! This utterly destroyed me and leaves a lasting legacy even to this day.

@itsbetterthanabox

I'd use the excuse that I just don't like doing it period and hope that they don't keep going on and on about it. As suggested above. This kind of leads me to the OPs problem - I'm not suggesting he is being polite and not telling he her doesn't like her genitals, but constantly perusing it might be Pandora's box.

@MiniTheMinx

Interesting to hear about your standards of perfection.We're all different, but if I had spent my life looking for a woman I considered perfect, I'd be single forever. I say this because I'm at best average looking, have lost much of my hair, wear glasses, have very pale skin etc and therefore am totally 100% aware that that doesn't fit the profile of Armani aftershave advert model, or Gillette model, or other obviously gorgeous man that are considered by many (not all) to be 'perfect'.

I don't believe for one second that there's a woman out there, including my wife or previous girlfriends who look back and think, yes, he was/is perfect - not a chance. I know what my wife's idea or perfection is and I also know I'm not it. This is reality and I can cope with it.

I also struggle with the concept that to love someone they have to be perfect?

If I was looking for perfect (to me), I'd be looking for a 6' tall, slim woman with perfectly straight platinum blonde heair all the way down her back, chocolate box pretty face, with firm D cup breasts with larger than average areola, an immaculately neat and waxed vulva, who was very intelligent, funny, wanted sex 5+ times a week, was able to orgasm through penetration alone, got very 'wet' when aroused, was totally and utterly faithful and a virgin when we met.

And of course, based on the theory of only loving someone who was perfect, she would naturally have to feel the same about me.

I'm a realist and know that if you're generally accepted as gorgeous, you know it and know that you have the ability to find a roughly equally gorgeous partner - hence, unless money/power is involved, you tend to see couples where there is a rough equality in their looks i.e you tend to go for people you feel you have a chance with.

On that basis, knowing that I'm at best a 4 or 5/10 on the general attractiveness/perfect scale, I'm never going to find my 'perfect' who also finds me 'perfect' - just not going to happen, so we naturally learn to accept imperfections and things that are not quite as we like or would prefer them and still fall in love and form life long relationships - despite all the imperfections.

If you've had relationships with partners you've found perfect in every way and they have felt the same about you - I envy and admire you in equal measure. Or you must just be an absolute stunner. Either way, your vulva sounds lovely. LOL

ExceptionFatale I'm quite shocked that another woman would think it acceptable to critique in that way.

Familymanhusband, some very valid points. I accept that you see very ordinary people together with very ordinary people. But I've seen some stunning looking women with rather pug faced old men. Wealth and social power aside, perfection is a subjective thing.

I'm straight, but if I wasn't I wouldn't find your idea of perfect attractive. We all have preferences.

I stand by what I've said, if you love someone enough you don't just overlook flaws or lack of perfection......you simply don't see it, therefore they are perfect for you. I love everything and every inch of DP, he's probably not perfect, but he is to me. If however I'd clocked a lot of flaws at the outset including ugly bits I wouldn't be with him.

As for me and mine, I'm nothing like your idea of perfection, (I'm laughing). I'm sure your wife thinks your perfect to her, just as my partner tells me I am to him.

I think Exceptional has given excellent advice.

TheMiniMinx

My wife and I mustn't love each other enough then, as neither of us are blinded by love to not see each others imperfections.

There were things about each other that we found, and still to this day find unattractive in each other, but have the mindfulness to accept that's just how it goes and there's more than just physical attractiveness to consider in a life long partner.

I genuinely envy anyone who looks at their life partner and is so in love that they only see perfection and do not see the faults and unattractive bits. Sounds like utopia.

I think the lower one's self esteem and opinion of their own appearance and attractiveness, the more pragmatic they have to be when accepting faults and unattractive features in their life partner.

@Familymanhusband
How would like to be kindly told that your penis and testicles are unattractive and you partner will not be giving you oral sex?

I wouldn't like to be told and don't condone such - some things are best left unsaid.

That's my entire point - it might not be such a good idea to push and push to find out why someone won;t perform oral on you, as if you push to far, the enquirer might find out something they wish they hadn't.

We've established further up the post that probably the most sensitive method of handling the question is to just say you don't like doing it full stop. But if the person keeps on trying to 'change' you, it puts you in a difficult position.

Familymanhusband you must be very pragmatic, but are you happy?

MiniTheMinx

I'm a realist, and I'm far happier than I would be if I were to wake up one morning and say, "sorry wife and kids, I know you're all my best friends, my rock and my reason for being, but I've decided to chase perfection and give up on everything we've got, so I'm off...."

Given we're essentially talking about physical imperfections here as that's where the thread had gone, you have to keep in mind the ageing process. I've no idea how old you are Mini, but perhaps the ageing process has not yet knocked on your door?

Even if you (and maybe you have) find the perfect partner, as time goes on they will age. Even if I found my perfect 6ft chocolate box blonde, she won't look the same at 60 as she does at 20. Everything will be saggy, things will be wrinkled, her pubic hair will begin to turn grey, liver spots will appear on her skin, her eyesight and or hearing may deteriorate - in other words, she'll be riddled with imperfections - as will I.

So, based on the above, she's no longer perfect - do I leave (with my own imperfections) and try to find perfect again? Of course not.

This is because we know that as we age and become less perfect, we simply have to tolerate, accept and embrace this process and that we won't be in our 20's forever. A 50 year old man with a bit of a belly, generally (money and power aside for the fickle) won't end up with a perfect 20 something woman, likewise the same in reverse - generally. This back to the theory of accepting you have a realistic catchment area, based on your own position in life and perfection.

This takes me back to my previous statement - I'm not a perfect man, I'm middle aged, balding, wear glasses, have pale skin and am not particularly handsome, but I am tall, reasonably muscular and average to low BMI - based on my own eyes and perception of the world, that makes me about a 5/10 give or take - I could be better, I could be worse, in the attractiveness/perfection stakes.

For me to decide that hey, I'm not as 'happy' as I could be, so let's give up everything in a mid-life crisis and go and chase perfection in a woman would be naive and foolish, let alone the devastation I'd feel leaving my family that I love so dearly.

I'm genuinely not trying to be a smart arse, but just putting forward that you can absolutely love someone, with their imperfections and bits you might not like and be happy - it's life and not everyone is blinded by love where they can't objectively see things and people for what they are.

Your perfect partner (?) absolutely will age and become less perfect, old, wrinkly and grey. Are you telling me that your love for them means your eyes will still see perfection? I can't answer for you, but suspect not, therefore surely a long game approach is the real secret to happiness?

Love and happiness to all.

@Familymanhusband
Yikes about insulting DTD by the ex. I once ended a relationship with a man on the spot when he told me "I could improve, he's had better". The ironic thing about this is while I was crushed immediately and for a month or two after I pretty much came to the conclusion that based on what my other partners said - he was either full of it OR more likely I just wasnt compatible with what he wanted in that department. Since its the only time I have heard something negative...and I had JUST turned 19, it never impacted me much. Maybe this has to do with the fact that oral sex is a skill that one can get better at or change techniques, it wasn't centered around my person and the way I was born.

@MiniTheMinx
While I dont make excuses for her behavior, looking back I can see how I had fallen out if love with her quite a while earlier and gave her no hints as to this, I picked a crap time to spring the news on her - I was annoyed with how much she was drinking and being stone cold sober just said "This hasn't been working for some time, you mean a great deal to me but I can't give you the love you deserve" Since she was drinking I refused to engage further with her as I learned having a drunk for a mum that you cant argue with someone thats been drinking. So it was a crap way and a crap moment to spring it on her. I'm going to speculate that her being a lesbian with zero male experience and me obviously not - she did make comments in the past about being insecure about me wanting an ex or leaving for a new man - it didnt help that during the beginning of our relationship I was insecure about showing my bits to another woman and callously said in an attempt for reassurance that "All my ex boyfriends said I looked amazing...I want to hear a womans opinion" and Im sure that added to her insecurity and simmered for the duration of the relationship.

Thankfully I'm a lot more thoughtful with my words in relationships. My personal mantra if I question myself if I should say something or ask something is: If I would be hurt or upset by my partner asking me or telling me the same information - keep it to myself. If its an issue that needs to be addressed - find a more caring way of saying it.

Tact is definitely something you learn as you go along

Again @Familymanhusband I'm chuckling along with Minx. Being 5'3, Auburn, and barely breaking a B I'm so far on the opposite end of what you find attractive - sounds like your perfect is a cross between supermodel and blonde bombshell.

I hate bringing up the contoversial subject of porn on MN, but it's relavent and I'll keep it at this - I've heard of so many women being crushed by their women finding their men get off to women that look nothing like them and I would imagine stings terribly. Watching pornography isnt an issue in our house so Ive opened up his tablet to Google something and his PC on many occasions and found open browsers. The first time (and second) I instantly closed it and told him to clear his damn history. So the third time it happened I was like "This has got to be a message of some kind". Color me amused and feeling like a million bucks when I realized I was his "preference" - the women looked very similar. No secret message, just being a bit of a dunce but it cemented every compliment he ever gave me and continues to do so.

@ExceptionFatale

Yes, being told I was doing wrong was a proverbial kick in the nuts.

As for my perfect being a cross between a super model and blonde bombshell - yep, that's about it.

But.... have any of my previous partners looked like that? Nope. Yet I loved them all, unconditionally, despite their flaws and bits that were far from ideal - as I hope they did all of mine. But I wasn't blinded by love. I can see faults and imperfections with crystal clear 20/20 vision, and accept them with good grace.

Interestingly, the one who came closest to my ideal was the one who told me I was doing it wrong. LOL.

Whilst I have an idea or 'perfection', that does not stop me finding women of all kinds of heights, hair colour, bust size and BMI attractive, nor falling head over heels in love.

If a woman is kind, reasonably pretty, feminine/gentile and loves me, I'm cool with the rest. But if she's not into sex, I'll respectfully pass.

Familymanhusband, yes it's fine for everyone to have their own preference on how genitals look, but the way you've described women's vulvas is disrespectful. Is there any need to say some look like a decapitated grizzly bear? You sound very immature.

@Familymanhusband
So - to my original question, what does a man say to his partner when she asks why he won't go down on her without hurting her feelings, knowing there's nothing she can do about it?

I'd probably go with something like "Sorry about this but I'm shallow as fuck and your vulva looks like you've done stuff like give birth and shit and it's really off putting."

Followed by "I'll get my coat then" and fuck off out of her life so you can find a woman who happened to be born with unusually small labia

What Ford said Labias aren't there to be aesthetically pleasing-no way would I entertain anyone so shallow as to think otherwise.
OP personally this would be a deal breaker for me as oral, for both partners, is important in my relationship. It's certainly a discussion you need to have with him-as he's never tried it there is no way he can know he won't like it.

@Familymanhusband
So if your partner didn't give you oral would you just leave it and not ask her to or why?

And how would you know the person in question was shallow enough to think that way if they were protecting your feelings by not admitting that they found the appearance of your genitals off putting?

All you'd hear is that they would prefer not to do oral, and you'd then either end the relationship because it's a deal breaker, or continuously pursue the matter, never feeling like you'd got to the bottom of it.

I'll respectfully disagree with your shallow accusation. We are all different and all have our likes, dislikes and preferences - in some cases these preferences or dislikes cross a point where it causes one person a real problem and it is that person's right to not have to do something they don't want to do, just as it's just as much your right not to continue in a relationship with a person who doesn't want to perform oral.

Having a preference doesn't make them shallow, it just means they have a strong dislike for something, that very well might be some sort of hang up, phobia or other issue they have. Maybe they don't like feeling that way, maybe they wish they didn't and it hurts them to realise them not wanting to do oral is an issue for their partner, but never the less it's something they can't get over, even if they know they're unusual or 'wrong'.

Strange, weird, unusual - maybe.
Shallow, perhaps an unfair description.

But we're all entitled to our preferences likes, dislikes opinions and ultimately choices.

I'm going to go out on a limb & say that someone who gave a flying fuck about the appearance of genitalia would most likely show their shallowness in other ways also so I most likely wouldn't need them to make comments on their distaste for my labia to know they weren't a keeper
Personally I find it a tad pathetic to judge on the appearance of either genders genitals but that's just me, it also concerns me that my DC may come across someone who does this.

@itsbetterthanabox

I'd want to know why, but would know when to stop chasing if there wasn't a satisfactory answer forthcoming. If that person explained that it's just something they don't like and it made them feel uncomfortable, I'd have no right or desire to try and force the issue if they've clearly said they're not comfortable with it. You then have a choice to make.

I've read on here enough times that nobody should ever do something they feel uncomfortable with. The rationale behind their choice not part of the equation.

What if it's not appearance? What if there's a really unpleasant smell or taste that the woman in question is simply unaware of?

And there you have it..... hygiene. Men are obsessed with hygiene, well ours obviously, not so much their own. If I do any number of searches I get this topic. Men rarely perform oral sex on women in porn. And now there is the obsession with pretty neat bald pre pubescent vulvas, and bleached bum holes. When are men going to take up bleaching and waxing?

But, I agree people have preferences. And they should never be forced to do something. And they should be kind enough to spare other people's feelings. However, as I said previously, men are both obsessed and almost repulsed by what women have between their legs. It's sad, everyday on here alone you read about men who have ED and men who can't ejaculate. Men who prefer porn (it's not just lazy, it's sterile). All the while women are spending their time and money getting everything waxed or bleached or even resorting to surgery to pretty up their bits.

Just for the record - I'm fine with 99% of genital appearance, but one google search for blue waffle will illustrate that there's a point when normal becomes extreme and it would be justifiable to find something off putting.

I don't think poor hygiene is something that should be expected to be tolerated.

I wash twice daily down there and especially before sex, without fail.

I was with a woman once who and I kid you not, as soon as she removed her knickers, the room filled with a strong fishy odour that turned my stomach. I genuinely couldn't believe she couldn't smell it. I got on with it, but there was no way on earth I as going down there, I;d have been sick. Thankfully it was a one off and things were better there after.

Nobody expects surgical cleanliness, but I have no shame in admitting that the smell of a day's sweat and stale urine from multiple toilet visits since the morning's shower is off putting and not something I want to go down on, nor would I expect a woman to put a penis in her mouth that reeks of smegma.

It's just common decency.

My DP doesn't like doing oral, I do. He does other things that I never would, we all have our own preferences and I would never dream of trying to manipulate him into doing something he doesn't want to do.

Have had my fair share in the past, though, large labia notwithstanding. Even found one guy with a particular technique to suit the circumstances.

My partner did it at the beginning of our relationship and then stopped - it took a while before I got the reason out of him (he was worried about his teeth and wanted to go to the dentist first ). He then took a year and a half to get it sorted out. Tbh during that time I got a bit pissed off at continually pleasing him and not getting anything back (I only orgasm through oral) and thought about ending the relationship. Had a chat, he went to the dentist and all sorted now. It would be a dealbreaker for me personally if I couldn’t receive oral.

If it’s really important to you to the point you’re unhappy about it you’re just going to start getting resentful I would have a serious discussion with him, tell him how you feel and decide what you want more - the relationship or oral?

My dp ( new relationship ) loves giving oral . The thing is even though I'm 47 I've never experienced this before .
( prior relationship of 27 years and not good ) . The thing is I really liked it but I'm still a bit embarrassed . I've had 4 dc and I know he's never been with a woman whose had any children . There is nothing designer going on down there for me !
No reason to feel like that he's even offered to stay under the covers / lights off ! I'm just really worried I'll smell of pee too as I do get cystitis a lot .
We kind of joke at the moment that if I have a couple of glasses of wine it's on ! God I'm being so pathetic i know ! Would love to relax a bit more and just enjoy .

Some thoughts from an elderly gent.

The idea the Gates to Paradise are in some way 'ugly' or 'unattractive' doesn't sit well with me. But then trying to design something that is pretty, whilst at the same time able to accommodate a huge range of hard gristle is a bit of a challenge anyway.

Back in the day I was always happy to partake of a late bed time supper, but it wasn't Masterchef requiring marks out of ten for presentation.

OP I do sympathise, same background, married ex early sixties, and it may seem unbelievable, I didn't even know there was such a thing as a clitoris and sex was PIV and thrust. The marriage lasted eleven years, two children, ex ended it because of her lack of satisfaction.

Fortunately, a couple of years later I met someone – we're still together after forty years – who had very clear ideas about sex and her needs. My upbringing somehow gave me the idea that naice girls didn't dtd. Amazing, I know.

What to do? I gather receiving oral sex is not going to be a deal breaker but it's a fantasy of yours (a lovely one I add). In my case it was from lots of pillow talk and 'go on, please try it' sort of chat. I'd suggest starting with suggesting other things; 'love, just squeeze my nipples would you? And it a bit harder, I'd like to see how much I can take'. And a few other things and with lots of encouragement, 'Oo, that's nice, not quite so hard, that's it ... just like that.'

The following link is in a totally different context, but deals with what to do if one part of a couple doesn't want what the other does whilst emphasising no-one should do anything they don't want to do. I wish you both well.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jul/01/my-girlfriend-wants-me-to-spank-her-should-i-feel-guilty

Reminds me of one of my ex’s, utterly awful in bed, my god I stayed with him far too long. Didn’t like giving oral, didn’t like using his fingers, didn’t like any noise or movement from me during sex because it would put him off his orgasm...never seemed concerned about my orgasm though, which obviously never happened. He bored the hell out of me, completely selfish and basically just wanted a wank box.

OP, he sounds selfish, I’d stop giving him oral to be honest. Is he concerned about your pleasure at all? Or is he happy to bang away for 5 minutes whilst you fake it for his ego, and then roll over and go to sleep once he’s cum?

Might not be relevant, but I had a couple of bad experiences with giving oral in my early days. I liked the idea of it, but the first few tries tasted disgusting which put me off for a while. Have given it to my wife a few times and we both enjoyed it. I'm was never a fan of receiving.