Can anyone explain what are good and bad gcses?

[Schoolsec]

DS choosing options for September (Year 9). Apart from core subjects wants to do P.E , History, French, but wants to do Business Studies. Someone at work said it is not recognised as a good subject. Should I encourage Geography instead? DS is bright and capable. The Apprentice has a lot to answer for..

maktaitai - the student I have been referring to on this thread is a different student to the one who went to the same university as I did. Believe it or not, more than one student I have taught has made it to university The one I mention in this thread is currently in Yr 13 at my school. The one who went to the same university as I did (and I do like to take some credit for that...) is older. We are a small sixth form, and at least 75% of my Yr 13 Performing Arts/Theatre Studies students have gone on to university in the last five years (since I started there - can't speak for before that), with at least one from each year studying Drama/Theatre/Performance. Not all have been RG unis though.

I suppose I do keep banging on about it, yes, but only because I feel that the immediate response of many is to dismiss BTECs completely, and many earlier posts on this thread state quite clearly that students MUST be strongly encouraged to ONLY study traditional subjects if they are to have ANY hope of success in life.

I'm on the defensive, I know - that's because I teach BTEC Performing Arts and don't like the implication that only thick kids should take my subject.

maktaitai I have to confess that more than one of my BTEC students have gone to uni over the past three years. Unfortunately all sixteen of the current batch of year 13s will be going to uni in Sept. However they do have a lovely mix of vocational and academic level 3 courses. I am so pleased for them I just wish that people would stop refering to vocational subjects as being for the thick kids or for drug addicts or teenage mums.

With my UCAS hat on I talk about medicine,dentistry, law, vet etc as being vocational and no-one on mumsnet has referred to those courses being designed for the academic underachievers

happiky confused
"With my UCAS hat on I talk about medicine,dentistry, law, vet etc as being vocational and no-one on mumsnet has referred to those courses being designed for the academic underachievers"

It would interesing to know if any students ever get accepted on any of the above at uni after having taken BTECS rather than more traditional GCSE and A levels (or equivalent).

yes to Law - other A levels where English, History and French - student was an A-grader at everything - plus did tons of charity work. The BTEC we offer is the one A level version and it is a great way of picking up more UCAS points. And a few have gone into Civil, Mech and Elect engineering courses in RG - Business was their 'written' subject going alongside a mix of Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry.

They do take a BTEC at GCSE but it is the 2 GCSE version and then some take the National Award at KS5 along with A levels.

So they took BTECs as well as traditional A levels to up their UCAS points. The straight As in their A level courses would have been sufficient to make a successful application for Law.

That is not the same as taking BTECs instead of A levels and getting on a highly academic course, i.e. Medicine, but I am prepared to stand corrected!!

In my work rather than parent mode I deal in adult education - professional skills. By the time people get to me their GCSEs, A levels, degrees etc are lost in the mist of time. I would be more interested in why somebody had wanted to do a particular course - if they choose it because they think it will be interesting and give them skills, knowledge etc then all well and good. If they are choosing a course because they think it will be easy then I would be less than happy. To succeed in any profession trainees need to work hard.

Just to make clear - I am not questioning the hard work etc required of BTECs, particular GCSEs etc just wanting to be sure that people have the right motives for choosing courses.

In my profession, vocational qualifications are of no additional benefit as the training will overtake them very quickly and are always much more up to date. What matters more is that the new entrants can read, write, count and work hard.

loungelizard - you are correct in assuming that students have taken a combination of BTECs and A2s, but I just want to clarify, in case of confusion, that the BTECs are taken ALONGSIDE the A2s, not as an additional extra. The UCAS points gained for BTECs count too. Students in the sixth form at my school tend to take a combination of both - the girl I keep going on about has done 2 BTECs and 2 A2s this year. 2 As in her A2s would not be enough on their own.

Suzie - I think you make a really really good point.

FWIW, I did Business Studies for both GCSE and A-Level and I have to say it has had untold benefits in the workplace, particularly in issues of employment law, rights and discrimination. I feel more empowered as an employee that I would have done had I not studied it. I don't know if it affected my university application however, but I was accepted for all my choices. I have no regrets about studying it.

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned this, but looking at the list of 'Generally suitable arts A-Levels' on the Trinity College page it seems that a lot of them are subjects that would generally only be offered in an independent or grammar school. Things like Chinese, Classical Civilisation, Art History, Russian, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem slightly like it's somehow indirectly socially selective. But then all schools are equipped to offer science, maths etc as standard, so maybe that's irrelevant.

Yeah but no but.

A child often has no choice about where to go to school for KS3/KS4 but does for KS5. If someone is clever/determined enough to be Oxbridge material then they should be able to get into a decent sixth form (and there are lots of non-independent, non-grammars that fit that description) that does offer the 'generally suitable' subjects.

Hi Purits - depends where you live. Where we are the local sixth form is in fact a consortium made up of schools in a number of neighbouring towns. All the schools are now specialists so offer KS5 courses according to their specialism - maths in one, sciences in another, performing arts in another. This means anyone wanting to do a broad range will spend significant time on a bus trailing about from school to school. It cant be ideal and the results show this. To go to a single sixth form will meaning going right across the county - there's no bus so that means getting another car. The child has to be very determined to manage this.

The nearest "decent" sixth form college to us is 30 miles away and they take very few out of area students. All the town schools have their own good sixth forms but they are relatively small and so don't offer every subject. Fortunately both my DD's were able to take the subjects they wanted and remain in the school sixth form but if they wanted to take Russian or Art History it would have been hard lines.

I went to a large sixth form college that was fabulous but they just don't exist where we live.

For info (or to add fuel to the fire ...
LSE's published advice on A level choice

' The school considers not only6 the subjects offered but the combination. The school generally prefers certain subjects because it considers they are more likely to serve as effective preparation for studying at LSE. Admissions tutors will normally consider one of the following subjects only if it is offered in combination with subjects not included on the list.

The list accounting, art and design, business studies, communication studies, dance, D&T, Drama/ Theatre Studies, Home Ec, ICT, Law, Media Studies, Sports Studies.

LSE make the point that AS level choice is not so important.

So ... by extension GCSE choice matters more if it will affect the A levels the student can then choose.

For info (or to add fuel to the fire ...
LSE's published advice on A level choice

' The school considers not only6 the subjects offered but the combination. The school generally prefers certain subjects because it considers they are more likely to serve as effective preparation for studying at LSE. Admissions tutors will normally consider one of the following subjects only if it is offered in combination with subjects not included on the list.

The list accounting, art and design, business studies, communication studies, dance, D&T, Drama/ Theatre Studies, Home Ec, ICT, Law, Media Studies, Sports Studies.

LSE make the point that AS level choice is not so important.

So ... by extension GCSE choice matters more if it will affect the A levels the student can then choose.

'its somehow indirectly socially selective'

That's the point I am trying to make!!

However much teachers and schools insist that all GCSE subjects are equal, BTECs count as much as A levels etc, the universities (the 'top' universities or whatever one likes to call them) do not agree.

Whether they are right or wrong, the simple fact is that some pupils who want to get on to highly academic courses at some universities aren't going to get the places they deserve because they haven't taken the right GCSEs or whatever to start with, not because they are not bright enough in the first place, whilst those at grammar schools and private schools, who are possibly more 'in the know' do get the places.

GCSE subjects ARE equal, they are also DIFFERENT. At Oxford and Cambridge, arts students are expected to write at least one essay a week (my course was two a week) and assessment is almost entirely final exam based. If as a school student you much prefer subjects/courses which are mainly coursework based and/or are more practical than theoretical, then this suggests that perhaps you would not be prepared for/suited to the Oxbridge style of education. It also suggests that you are probably better suited to real life than academic swots like me whose only skill in life seems to be passing exams!

What people need is the right advice for THEM - if they want to go to Oxbridge, then traditional academic subjects are the best preparation for that. If they to be practical and hands on in life and spending 3 years sweating in an ancient library is not their idea of fun, then they should take more practical hands on subjects. If they are not sure what they want to do, then schools should ensure that students have a mix of subjects so no options are cut off for them.

The key thing about GCSE subjects is that you have a broad and balanced range. Most schools will set up their option blocks so that the student is forced to take a range of subjects.

i think if you recognise that your kid isn't going to go to oxbridge or become a brian surgeon. if you are not particularly arsed that your kid goes to a good university...just gets to go to university, then any old GCSE's will do.

i think its silly not to recognise that there isn't a hierarchy of these things. ofcourse things like business studies, sociology, even phychology are considered by some to be mickey mouse subjects considerably lesser than a degree in engineering for example.

but those of us who are realists about our kids ( maybe pessimists!) just want them to get on a track which will give them opportunity. whether that is opportunity to take a-levels ( 5 gcse's inc; maths and english is the criteria at most colleges - so the other three don't matter a jot) or the opportunity to get further training, and apprenticeship or even employment.

if he wants to do business studies let him, if you have a look at the course syllabus, and youthink its a piece of piss - good for him, let him concentrate on the other stuff like esp. english and maths.

Back to the OP - yes do Geography, it's a vibrant, living, relevant subject which prepares students well for life.

Yes I am biased and yes i do teach Geography.
Although it is hard for some - just look at this quote from Albert Einstein:

'As a young man, my fondest dream was to become a geographer. However, while working in the customs office I thought deeply about the matter and concluded it was too difficult a subject. With some reluctance I then turned to physics as a substitute. (Note: this wasn't actually written by Einstein, it was made up by a disgruntled Geography professor

As an employer, when looking at CV's I would ignore anything that ended with "studies".

Ok, yes, I'm a snob but I work for a blue chip comany and they work that way...

Hmm, when I was at school [only a few years ago, I'm 23] all the pupils who wanted to do Law at university were advised to do [and did] Business Studies at A Level. For some reason you're not advised to do Law at A Level if you want to do Law at uni because they don't like it.

This was at a grammar school so plenty of experience in getting pupils to where they wanted to be, and all of them got onto their chosen courses. Not sure though what the view would be on GCSE Business Studies as our school didn't offer it.

It does matter - i am a science teacher and teach AS nd A2 biology along with a level 3 BTEC in science to those in the sixth form at a very average comp. My A2 students have offers to read medicine, dentistry, medical science, pharmacology etc some at RG unis, some at former polys. My level 3 btecers who applied for uni are mostly still without offers, or only have offers for "odd" degrees at former polys.
If you do BTEC level 2 science at our school (ie Y9 choice) then we will only let you do level 3 BTEC, not AS science courses as we know it does not offer such a rigourous preparation.
I'm embarassed by the level 3ers who have got distinctions and are going round to my A2 biologists claiming they have got A's - ok in theory equivalent but not in practice in science are they equal in any way,shape or form - one of the lovely girls told me she was going to take a year out and apply to medicine on the strength of hers!!
At our school I'm afraid it is all about poiints scores and league tables, not what is best for the individual student.
I teach set 2 Y9 this year and was chatting to them on Friday - one of the girls was saying the HoY had told them BTECs were completely equal to GCSE's - I told her they were a bright group and none of them should be doing BTEC's in science - I expect to get my wrists slapped on mon if she has told anybody but I have their interests at heart, and as most of them are capable of going on to uni, even if they choose not to (or are swayed by their backgrounds)I would prefer they are informed rather than boost our place in the league tables.
(Additional info - I worked as an academic for years and was involved in admissions, my DH is currently invovled in admissions for medicine at a redbrick uni)

I hope you wouldn't Miggsie - those who do Religious Studies at AS and A2 are dealing with difficult concepts and several go on to read theology or philosophy at RG or Oxbridge.

My dh has an MA in Defence Studies from KCL, allied to his Chartered Engineer status and 30 years professional experience in his field both domestically and internationally. Would you discount that as well?

Even Oxbridge isn't that bothered about GCSE choices because it understands that what a child studies at GCSE level very much depends on the school they went to, rather than their intelligence.

It's lovely to do three sciences at GCSE but when I was at Cambridge, many students doing natural sciences or engineering had only done double science GCSEs because that was what their school offered.

However, A-levels do matter, especially for subjects such as engieering or medicine.

Look at University admissions pages for advice...

Oh, and if you want to go to a traditional university make sure that you do A-levels, not BTecs - see Loshad's comments.

My hairdresser charges me 47 quid for a 20 minute haircut - so don't dismiss vocational qualifications in hairdressing. It can be a good career.

Thank goodness for teachers like Loshad!!!

But it really is ridiculous that, on the one hand BTecs are being pedalled as equivalent to As at A level, and, on the other hand, the universities don't accept them as such.