Have I let DD down badly? grammar entry

[cantcarryon]

DD is currently at high ranking independent school in yr5, doing really well and told will have no problem getting into the equally high ranking attached senior school. She really likes the senior school and we had thought that was here settled.

However, there is a highly competitive and ultra sought after grammar in our area - girls from all over the country fighting to get in, girls put down on waiting list for tutors in y3 or earlier, tutored from y5. That includes girls from independents.

We had not been keen on going down this route as hate all the stress for DD of tutoring culture ( have never used it before) and, having seen the school, was not sure if it would duit DD as well as present school. (she is very into the arts, creative writing, acting, drama and the grammar is known for focus on science and maths).

However, this weekend she broke down in tears and told me all her friends were being tutored for this school, including her best friend, and why wasn't she? She has also ben told it is impossible to get in without tutoring. She is now desperate to go.

It is also true that we struggle a bit with the fees, would make life a lot easier if she got into this grammar. We have also been interested in the local comprehensive, not selective but very popular and gets good results, have heard lots of good things about it. Her 2 friends next door both go there so should be no problem getting a place, we are pretty close. But when i mentioned this she got very upset, saying she had seen some of the work her friend was doing (friend is in y7, my DD is in y5) and it was way too easy.

So i just don't know what to do. I will get her in with a tutor if I can as she is so keen, but just don't know if I will be able to find one at this late stage. we have started going through books for V and NV reasoning, which is what the entrance test solely consists of. She has been getting a bit stressed as she does not think she is doing well enough, though getting around 85%.

Have i completely let her down? Just feel I have left it all too late and she will not get a place because i can't get her a tutor.

Please, anyone got any advice?

Nottired, the friend who's work she saw is definitely in the top stream, I know the whole family very well. She went through the whole tutoring thing for the grammar for a year until her mum decided to give it up as the tutor told her she had no chance of passing the test as she was not quick enough in her answers.

That is what worries me, I know this girl is bright and in the top stream but the work she is doing is easier than the stuff my DD is doing now, and my DD is 2 school years behind.

I am worried about DD getting bored and frustrated if she is not stretched. This happened just before she moved to her present school and it made her very unhappy.

I am REALLY hoping you are right about her not needing tutoring but so many people here say it is virtually impossible to get into this particular school wothout tutoring that I am worried that I have put her at a severe disadvantage. By trying to avoid stressing her with tutoring I may be stressing her even more by putting her in for a test she is ill prepared for and has little hope of passing.

Just to put it into context, this school has over 1000 applicants for 120 places a year.

You can't educate your child based on her having a strop because 'all her friends' are going to a school - one of the best schools in the country. How many of them will actually get in, anyway?

I would go with whatever education you think is best (having decided long term, with a cool head) not based on the whim of a young child.

Stop panicking!

My DCs got into super selective grammar school without tutoring (roughly same applicants/places ratio as yours). Buy the papers yourself and practice.

Some of those who have been professionally tutored still won't get in, and some who are blissfully unaware of the hysteria surrounding grammar school tutoring (yes, there are some in the state sector who are unaware of 'tutoring') WILL get in.

Whilst I agree the system is not fair in that many children are tutored, thus raising the bar, there are still some who get in without any form of help.

So your daughter should be in with a pretty good chance, if you start going through the papers with her now.

Most independent prep schools will prepare children for the entrance exams of schools in their locality. Have you spoken to her current Head?

When dd was due to move, we were told by her Headmistress that she would certainly put her forward for the excellent high school in our area, but DD may not get in, and it may be too stressful for her anyway.

She was offered a place at another school where most of her friends were going, but we decided that she should go to her current school - despite the fact that none of her friends were going there. We had tears, but several years later, we all agree that it was absolutely the right choice for her.

Good luck - it's hard to know what's right, isn't it?

It sounds like the stress her friends are under with tutoring etc is rubbing off on her. Don't be afraid to stick to your guns and say that you think she should stay at her current school, and explain to her why.

If children need to be tutored up to the hilt to get in - they ain't gonna cut it at that school and life becomes way more shitty than it is now.

A few practice papers so she recognises the style of questions and if she's got what it takes to make it at that school, it will show through her natural ability.....not through jumping through hoops with a tutor for the sole pupose of passing tests on one day.

Where she is sounds just right for her and if a good handful of other children stay with her, she will be fine.

I think I can guess what school you are talking about- and I agree with the others- stick to your guns.
Again the local comp- is it an all girls? (If if it's the one I'm thinking of there's an express stream)

Are you happy with the independent senior school choice? is the senior school ethos is line with what would suit your daughter? Does that senior school go up to A level or will she have to move again?

Whilst I agree that tutoring is by no means essential to gaining a grammar place, with such high levels of competition - and an enthuisiastic child - I'd opt for as much help as I could get. Been there, done that, DS came in the top 100. Agree with Doodlez though; the child needs to be able to withstand the enormous pressure/competition inherent in most grammars...and ime those who scrape through struggle with decent grades in later years. Sometimes it's better to be a big fish in a small pond.

Even if all her friends are sitting the grammar exam they won't all pass - make sure she realises this.

I wouldn't worry too much about tutoring - if she wants to try the exam, do the practice papers as you are & work at getting speed and accuracy up - she can probably see from looking at the right answers where she is going wrong and as long as she can work out an approach to solve all the types of questions there isn't really anything else a tutor can tell her. BUT do make sure she realises it is a lottery. If she doesn't pass it isn't necessarily any reflection on her abilities and it doesn't matter; bright children like her will do well at any good school and she has good alternatives. You need to be instilling these thoughts into her head, as she's currently being fed who knows what ideas from her friends.

Even if her comprehensive friend's work looks easy & it is top set, there may well be differentiation within the top set. Could you go & look around sometime? If their top end children are achieving highly & it is well thought of it is probably fine. And if the work is easy and the results are good then the problem may be more with the curriculum (easiness of GCSEs) than the school which would tend to be a problem at any school. Maybe you can find her some other stuff outside school to keep her motivated - learning an instrument, drama group etc.

Thanks for all the comments - sorry not replied earlier, been at work.

Justabout - yes, i know I am getting a bit stressed about it. Has been a really awful year (other issues, not to do with schools) and I think i am losing my marbles a bit - can't keep everything in perspective. I am indeed lucky to have a choice, but not sure if the private option will remain a realistic one - finances may get too stretched.

Not really bothered about the "strop" element (i have learned to ignore that!) but concerned that, if can't afford private and grammar is out because of lack of tutoring, the comp option, though was my preferred option, may not stretch her enough. though I could well be wrong about that. and i know that very few of her friends are likely to pass - and have made sure she is aware of this too.

deaddei - I think I have seen posts from you in the past and you are in my area, so yes you have guessed right! Yes, comp is girls only and has v good reputation. That's interesting about the express stream - would relieve my worries knowing that is there. Think i need to see if i can get to have a look round the comp and talk to some of the teachers - not sure if that is possible outside of main open day

cantcarryon- my dd is at the girls comp and is doing so well.
I would ring the school and see if you can at least meet a member of the SMT to discuss.
(how funny, we may have passed in the street )

deaddei - thanks, that is very reassuring. My gut feeling about this school has always been very good. I will try contacting the school and see if I can arrange some sort of meeting.

Any decent school is quite open to visits outside open days. You do really want to see a school in operation to make a decision. My DCs school has weekly tours, but will also arrange ones on other days if you request. (You really can't make every Monday morning 10-11 a special time when every lesson is extraordinarily exciting and engaging.)

I guess which school you are referring to. I know a family of bright girls - who live on its doorstep and went to SH junior, but failed to get in . The eldest is now going to Westminster 6th form.In fact we know dozens of v. bright girls ,including those who have got full scholarships to St Paul& NLCS who failed to get in. It is lottery, and you really must impress this upon your DD. Lucky you to have had the means to go private so far and possibly in the future! Some might argue that places there should reserved for the brightest girls who live in the borough within a 2 mile radius and have attended state schools in the area. That way my clever but impecunious DD may not have been muscled out of a place.
(She's v. happy elsewhere but doesn't look down so snootily at those who don't share her priviledges- as your DD would appear to)

Thanks for the constructive comments on my DDs character Notapushy1. Clearly you know her very well

If you could be bothered to read my post you will see she is not "looking down snootily" on her best friend who does not "share her privileges". She is genuinely unhappy about potentially not being allowed to do work at a level she is doing at the moment. She has had this problem in a previous school and was bored stiff and miserable. And that was at a private school so she does not "look down her nose" at state schools as you seem determined to believe.

By the way, the reason we were forced to cripple ouselves financially and send our DCs private was that our local authority told us that we were not in the catchment area of any local schools so they would not be able to provide them with a reception place anywhere. It was private or no education at all for god knows how long. So perhaps you should be thankful for the privilege of your DCs being given a good state education.

I get the feeling from your post that it is you who "looks down snootily" on those who attend private schools when you know nothing about them.

Why do you wish to push your child in to a school focused on science and maths when these are not her forte?

Echo others - you don't need tutuoring if the child is able enough.

Skihore - you're right, I do have a gut feeling that this school is not right for DD, got sidetracked by the fact she was so keen to give it a go (but probably more to do with wanting to stay with friends).

I am coming round to the view that the girls comp would be much better for her - had a few worries that the work might not be advanced enough to stop her being bored but am assured by comments from deaddei whose DD is there.

I'm a bit concerned that some posters have got the impression that I am a dreadful pushy mum but really all the pressure on DD comes from herself! She was deeply unhappy at a previous school because she was not getting work at a level to keep her interested and it was awful to see how depressed that made her. I just don't want that to happen to her again. This is the thing with highly able kids, it is a constant battle to keep up with their voracious appetite for learning! I know that can sound smug, I really don't mean it to be. Her abilities have nothing to do with me, that's for sure!

And she certainly does not "look down snootily" at those who go to state schools. that was unnecessary, notapushy. Have a go at me if you want as I chose to post here, but please do not attack a 10 year old you know nothing about. Its not big and its not clever.

By he way, where is SH junior, does not ring a bell?

Cant

I too by my wondrous powers of deduction have worked out the school in question !!

Is it TGS by any chance?

DD2 is just about to leave and has enjoyed being there, but constantly bemoans the lack of support for those not planning on taking science or medicine at Uni.
She loved singing, writing and drama when she entered the school but sadly has had few opportunities to pursue this at this school,but this culture may change with a new head.

The girls are a lovely lot,on the whole, but verrry driven and self motivated, so on the downside, it is hard to cope there if your daughter always wants to be top as
praise for achievment is 'restrained', and they are all used to being 'top'

Tutoring helps prepare them speed wise for the test, but can't really be taught.
If she really wants to have a go then let her, but do you really need the added stress if you have other options?

One of my DDs is also at that school. It is a nice school, the girls are well behaved and pleasant but believe me it is not the only school around. As the previous poster mentioned - most girls (or their parents!)seem to want to be doctors and if you are creative it doesn't do much to nurture that. Another child of mine did not get in and is about to start at a comp which are far superior in terms of what they offer for arts and creative stuff.
TGS is fairly straightforward to prepare for as they do the NFER VR and Non VR only. Tutoring is not essential but she probably needs to be getting over 95% in the practice papers. The outgoing head said succesful applicants are within the top 7% of the population. A tutor I spoke to who has tutored for the school (tho we didn't use one thinks it is more like the top 5%). Unfortunately each year it becomes more and more of an arms race. There are specialist websites around with forums full of advice for home tutoring.

Iwastooearly - got it in one!

Thanks for your insights Iwas and GroveMum - it is great to get views from those who have experienced the school. You have confirmed my gut feeling - it is a great school for those who are interested in sciences, maths etc but there are better schools for her to go to which would give her better opportunities on the creative side.

GroveMum - which comp is your other DD about to start at? Is it CG?

Thanks for all the advice, it has really helped clarify things in my mind. I think i will help DD with doing some work at home on VR and non VR for now to keep her options open and will also look seriously at CG.

No we don't live in the local area - DD2 is going to an infamous though improving comp in central London on an art aptitude place. We went to a fantastic presentation for the new art aptitude students last night - very aspirational with money being lavished on them in a big way.

I sometimes feel that TGS just care about academic results and not developing the whole person. One of my daughter's friends went to the local primary school and used to gaze at TGS wanting to go there. Unfortunately she found her dreams were not realised and she dislikes the school.

It is just a school - not the flipping holy grail. It gets good results because all the girls are very clever - not because the teaching is better than at other schools.