Silly question - but how do you know if schools are cheating their GCSE results?

[ShoshanaBlue]

I have a friend who used to work as an IT worker in a school and part of his job each year was to remove certain pupils from the register and then re-enter them after exams so that their results wouldn't count.

He told me that he'd spoken to other IT workers about it and it's common, he told me that the other method some schools use was to pay £3000 (not sure who to) to expel a pupil whose results were likely to sabotage their league table standings.

Can someone clarify this? And can someone tell me how you know for certain that the results you're looking at are reliable?

Sure many private schools do this all the time - kicking out pupils who won't deliver the all important A* or making them sit particuarly exams as a private student not as part of the school.

As always the state schools are slowly catching up such that it is predicted that sometime in 2018 or 2019 all students in England and Wales will achieve minimum nine A GCSE's and four A alevels.

Speaking as a school governor, I would say it would be very hard indeed to do this at a state school - it would need collusion from so many people I doubt it could be done.

what some schools do do though, I understand, is to have the same top set children taking a lot of GCSEs and then sort of spread them out so that it looks as if more pupils have got the As and A* when it fact it's a smaller number of pupils getting more. IYSUIM

I really do wonder where people get their ideas about independent schools.

Just to clarify, my comments were about state schools.

But in answer to your question MmBlueberry - in the same way people get their ideas about any sort of school - from research, journalism, rumour, gossip, hearsay, observation, and in some cases even personal experience!

Happens alot at state school, couldnt comment on private schools.

Best way to find out? Chat to sixth formers, they tend to be cross that this or that happened to their friend and will tell you that X did all their coursework but then was chucked off the course as they wouldnt have got an A-C grade or Ys parent had to pay a fortune to take the exam at a local college as an independent student as the school wouldnt enter them for the exam

A levels are different - schools don't have to let anyone take a levels, or even go into the 6th form. I assumed the OP was talking about GCSEs.

seeker, do you know if GCSE English is a mnadatory subject for everybody, or can children be withdrawn from that exam if it is felt that they have absolutely no chance of passing?

My friend is a govenor at a state school...he says expulsions always go up before exam time. Dud students therefore sit the exam but do not count as part of school stats so the school stats are good.

A work colleague has a child at private school.
He was asked to remove his boy shortly before exam time "as he didn't quite fit the school ethos".

If the head thinks it is ok, it happens

At my DS 6th form college there are a number of kids from the local highly selective private schools who weren't allowed to stay for the 6th form because they failed to get 10A at GCSE; 9A and an A were not good enough. That is why their A level results are soooo high. Not cheating though.

His former secondary school used to take in kids in year 11 from the comp in the next town who had been told they would not be able to sit certain GCSEs because they may not pass. The league tables reflect this which is why they should not be relyed on.

A local outstanding faith school rids itself of a number of pupils at 16 who have been attending since 11.
They then accept an influx of more able students from other schools.
Nice christian ethos eh?

Litchick - don't know about your school, but our school only offers A-levels in 6th form, so all students are offered places subject to achieving a min grade at their GCSEs. The grade needed depends on the subject.
This is pretty standard in many schools, I noticed on the website of the only grammer school in our county that students need an A to study maths at A level, whereas our school only insists on a B. This is to ensure the students can cope and has nothing to do with the school ethos. BTW ours is an outstanding faith school, but dont know if it's the one you are referring to.

A friend of mine has had two DCs who went to (recently - both at uni) an absolutely top flight boarding school. You know, the type that records a near perfect score in the A level league table. And yet, according to her, not only are some pupils ejected at GCSE but there are always a few 'survivors' who just, for example, decide that work is, like, soooo uncool, in the sixth form and get - shock horror - Bs and Cs etc in Alevels (yes yes I know that was perfectly respectable in our day but these days it would certainly knock the school down the league tables a bit) - and yet it never seems to. According to her, if you add up the overall scores it just doesn't seem to take account of these lower grades.

I think people ,looking at league tables aren't aware that the GCSE rating might be achieved by students taking a whole range of qualifications that are rated as the equivalent of GCSEs.
ASDAN do a range of " portfolio " exams ,some of which can be practised and taken on line. With the right number of units taken the equivalent of a B grade GCSE can be achieved.
Please note that I am not saying that these qualifications are worthless or substanded ,just that there should be more clarity .

I'm not sure if that is true, Miggsie, about expelled students' results not making the league tables.

We have had expelled students from state schools sit exams in our school as private candidates, and their results end up being allocated to their original school.

I simply do not believe that entrance to any sixth form would be contingent upon 10A* or anything close.

Most sixth forms will specify B-grades in the GCSE they want to carry on. An exception may be Mathematics, where an A would be a standard. Many independent schools will take on A-level students who got C-grades. It depends on the circumstances.

I would like to know which school is specifying 10A*, if it exists at all.

Just come back from GCSE information evening at dd's high achieving grammar school. There you need 7 A-Cs for the 6th form, with As or Bs in the subjects you want to do.

I wouldn't be particularly impressed with 7 C-grades. It sounds like the 6th form has a fairly "comprehensive" profile. Not unusual.

MmmBlueberry, I suspest they say A-C because someone would only get 7 Cs at this particular school in the most exceptional circumstances (incubating bubonic plague, entire family abducted by aliens on the morning of the exam - that sort of thing) and they need to be able to make exceptions!

I've become aware recently that some schools in my area send troublesome/low achieving pupils out on long-term work experience placements. I don't know if the students are still on the roll (got the impression they are) but they are not entered for GCSEs. These children are often then leaving school barely able to read & write.

A state school should allow all students who are capable into sixth form. It is not for the school to decide that C and D grades are unnecessary. That is for the independent sector to do but should not be the case in the state sector. That is why they allow students with only 7 A-C grades into sixth form - they have a right to be there!
I have also known students to do badly at GCSE but still get As at Alevel.
To be proviocative I would like to argue that the state sector doesn't write off children like the independent sector but accept they may be late developers!

Fraid the state sector does write kids off. My nephew's best friend was ejected from their (good, ex grammar way back when) comprehensive after GCSEs. Not only did it have an (obvious!) adverse effect on the poor boy who was chucked out but it also considerably lowered the morale and work ethic of my nephew for months. It's just ridiculous.

Interesting debate this. Do people think that you should have an automatic right to go into the 6th form of your school whatever your GCSE results? Do any schools do this? It never crossed my mind that they might. I don;'t think any round here do.

Our school's reasons are that without a good GCSE pass in the subjects being studied at A level,then it's more difficult to achieve good grades at A level.
If past experience at public exams shows that a student has achieved modest grades at GCSE, surely it would be better for the student to study a diiferent type of qualification such as a BTEC where s/he can still get excellent grades and have more options at higher education if that's what they choose to do.
NB please note I am not offereing BTEC as being in any way inferior, just a different, possibly more appropriate, route to the same end. And many schools do not have the physical space or staffing resources to offer both.

I am not suggesting all pupils to be allowed to do Alevels but if they are able then should be allowed to do so. Also lots of school sixth forms do GNVQ BTEC etc and should allow students to do these.
Obviously you have to have a reasonable chance of passing but if the student is happy to get an E grade then should the school stop them because of their position in the league tables?
Another argument against league tables perhaps?!

Another issue to consider is that if (say) 90% of the students are aiming for A-C, and 2 or 3 are aiming/predicted D/E, then what impact does this have on the pace of teaching in the class?