Silly question - but how do you know if schools are cheating their GCSE results?

[ShoshanaBlue]

I have a friend who used to work as an IT worker in a school and part of his job each year was to remove certain pupils from the register and then re-enter them after exams so that their results wouldn't count.

He told me that he'd spoken to other IT workers about it and it's common, he told me that the other method some schools use was to pay £3000 (not sure who to) to expel a pupil whose results were likely to sabotage their league table standings.

Can someone clarify this? And can someone tell me how you know for certain that the results you're looking at are reliable?

I think you have to remember that an E at A-level is a pass, and that for many students, this is an achievement and they should be allowed to have a go. 2 Es will allow a student to do a foundation course at Art, college, for example.

Students do a lot of growing up in sixth form. It's not all about getting top results in major subjects.

I agree with mnistooaddictive, I think it is wrong for schools to prevent children studying for 'A' levels, whatever grade they got in their GCSEs. Children can mature, apply themselves more, make use of a private tutor etc. all of which can change their predicted grades. It seems that the schools are more interested in league tables than in the children.

So what if a school doesn't have enough places in the 6th form for everyone?

If you do not achieve well at GCSE, you will be unlikely to be able to cope with the more complex (obviously) challenge of 'A' level - simple. It would be a nonsensical system indeed that allowed pupils without a suitable grounding at GCSE to begin an 'A' level course.

In relation to the op - schools are able to remove certain pupils from the data, for example if they are recent arrivals to the country / out of the correct age range. They remain on roll but don't count in the league tables because it would be unfair. This is right and is not cheating.

Permanent exclusions are a huge, lengthy and costly proceedure and can most certainly not be used as a way to 'fiddle the books' as it were.

If pupils who are not coping by Yr 11 go off and do 'alternative provision' this is also very costly and pupils remain on the school roll but are able to do something more appropriate to their needs and to prevent them falling out of the system entirely, becoming a school refuser, disrupting the learning of everybody else, whatever. These decisions are taken on an individual basis according to the need of the pupil. These pupils do remain on the data for league tables and will affect a school's figures.

I am bumping this because it made me cross and my crossness remains suspended in a vacuum.

How would you teach a class of A - E students? At GCSE there would probably be 7 sets for varying degrees of ability. At A-level there may be 2 classes if you are lucky. How does the teacher pace the lesson that allows the A students to work productively whilst slowing the pace sufficiently for the E students? I would've thought whole class teaching would be impossible.

Students still show up on the data even if suspended or are a non-attender; have one at the moment who I can make no impact on whatsoever as he is never there but he will appear in the stats.

They way the schools manipulate results are with modular GCSEs which allow a lot of resits (Science) or where they sit an exam worth 4 GCSEs (IT/Art).

However, there are two sets of data, and the important one includes Maths and English % A*-C passes. There are a number of comprehensive schools and also mediocre independents which had amazing pass-rates until they were required to publish this info. Be totally clear when looking at a school's own interpretation of data e.g. the number of entries for maths and English to see if the entire year's cohort are sitting the exam.

It's called differentiation, hocus. Teachers are meant to teach all pupils according to their individual needs. Primary school teachers do this very well, but it shouldn't be beyond secondary teachers either. We are all trained to do this.

As for the notion that students won't cope well with A-levels if they did not get a top grade at GCSE, what if their potential is to get just an E-grade? Should we not value that achievement?

We rarely take on students to do A Levels in my subject who don't achieve a B at GCSE. We sometimes take on students with a C. We provide other courses that are more suitable.

The gap between GCSEs and A Levels is huge. I currently have an AS class with students performing across the whole grade spectrum even though there is no one in there who achieveded below a grade C. I have to do a lot of differentation at both ends of the spectrum.

My comment about being able to do A levels was directed at this point: "I think it is wrong for schools to prevent children studying for 'A' levels, whatever grade they got in their GCSEs. Children can mature, apply themselves more, make use of a private tutor etc" and meant that a Grade C was an absolute minimum requirement.

As a head of year, in the past, I have had to be really firm with pupils (and their parents) who were predicted Es, Fs and even Gs at GCSE but were still insisting on applying to 6th form college to do 'A' levels - it just wastes everybody's time.

I agree janeite.

but are there never cases where children were bullied during their GCSE final year, or had emotional problems, a death in the family, or behavioural problems, or medical problems where they were off school for long periods? I remember when I did A levels, the fact that I only had to do 3 meant that I could devote more time to the subject and not spread myself over 10 subjects which helped me. Also I think private tutors can help children enormously. In the past I have tutored children privately and saw tremendous improvements. I think MmeBlueberry has a good point that obtaining an E grade can be useful for obtaining a foundation course at art college. Also presumably people can cover the syllabus and then retake the exams a number of times. In my day I people were able to read unpopular subjects such as engineering at university, even if they got low grades at university. I think that many people improve as they mature. Many mature students pass OU degrees even though they obtained low GCSE grades.

low gardes at A level

Claig that is why we interview our students and point them in the right direction. There will always be an exception to the rule.

I have 2 student in my A/S class who will probably get an E grade or maybe a D. They acheived a grade C at GCSE.

that is all I meant to say, that there should be room for exceptions. Most students will probably agree to be pointed in a different direction to A levels. But if students and parents are adamant that they would like to try and can show good reasons, even after the difficulties have been pointed out to them, I would be in favour of giving them the opportunity.

I think that can be the advantage of a school sixth form, we know the students and can make an informed decision. It would be very unusual, if not unheard of for a student to get a G at GCSE and then attempt an AS course.

My lower C grade GCSE students are finding it hard.

I would suggest that an A-C grade at GCSE maps to a A-E grade at A-level. If you get an A*/A at GCSE, you could expect an A or B at A-level. A B-grade, then a C at A-level, and a C-grade a low D or E, obviously subject to extenuating circumstances.

I know at my school, we can help all students get at least an E (we have 100% pass rate at A-level), regardless of what they got in the GCSEs (and there will be several scraped Cs). If they get 2 or 3 Es, they can move onto HE.

For a lot of subjects, assessment is done by rubric. Students can target a specific band, and they don't need to feel they have failed if the band they have chosen is the E band. I don't think it is necessary to introduce alternative courses to prevent students from failing.

I remember my brother struggled when we returned to the UK after living abroad half way through his A levels. He had a different syllabus with a different examination board. He had to do extra work using a correspondence course and making use of a private tutor, and he ended up doing well in his A levels. If some pupils use extra tuition and work very hard they are able to improve over their past performance.

TSP, what are your lower-grade students finding difficult? To do A/B/C work, or to do D/E work? Are they at risk of getting Us?

I teach philosophy of religion.

I have one who has been getting Us on essays, he just struggles with abstract concepts and gets very muddled. He can do D/E work but only with extra classes from me and on some of our lighter topics from me. He also came to me unable to structure an essay, that has been addressed.

I am infuriated that my son has not be allowed to return to complete his ALewvwels becauswe it is not school policy for them to repeat a year. He got a CDE which may not be outstanding but are still passes! SO his future is scuppered because of the school league tablews. Luckily he has got on to a course at a local college doing something he wants to do, but his attitude to the school after 6 very happy years has been completely soured.

I am considering myself niave at this stage for not realising that schools employ some dubious practices to fiddle their league tables. My daughter has reached year nine and her highly academic girls' school has already started squeezing, bullying and generally getting rid of girls who might soil their results. However, they have been very pleased to take our money since the Junior School.

We have voted with our feet to be honest and are going to another school which is honest enough to admit that they do not score 100% on their league tables because some of their children need support. They are happy with that and so am I.

I feel a bit soiled at this stage in the private education sector. I would warn any mums to look hard at a school, not merely at statistics. I can't imagine the hurt for a child to be thrown out just before their exams. It would have a permanent scar on their psyche.

My sons state schools have cheated on his SATS at KS1/2 and 3, due to this his GCSE predictions are highly inflated; which I managed to prove with the help of some helpful teachers.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if his current school either cheat or leave him to fail totally this year.