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Secondary education

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Advice needed pls - Do you think this teacher is BU, and what do I say to her?

103 replies

ilovepiccolina · 30/11/2009 21:24

DS is 16 and takes his mock Maths GCSE this week, real thing in the summer. For the past few weeks he's been coming home saying that Miss sent him out of the class for no good reason. I know that he can fidget, not listen etc so have ignored this. Then on Friday he came home angry, frustrated and upset, saying that he had put his head down briefly onto the desk, and she had shouted 'Right, out NOW' etc. & made him stand outside for 15 mins. Another boy was sent out for making a noise as he yawned. (They were both 'disrupting' the class.) He says that this was totally unjustified.

She'd gone home by this time so I've sent a note asking her to ring me. I am very concerned that DS is missing valuable tuition in a subject he struggles with. I bumped into at CA friend who's worked with this teacher, she said if she was the parent she would kick up a stink, and that the teacher is hopeless at teaching basically - she doesn't get 'on task' for the first 20 mins so no wonder the dch get bored/sleepy/distracted.

Why couldn't she have said to DS 'Sit up straight!' He said he would have. Is there not a better way of dealing with this behaviour? DS says all the other teachers ignore it.

What should I do?

OP posts:
Goblinchild · 11/12/2009 08:08

Scaryteacher, I have a Y10 boy with AS. And he gets aggressive when stressed.
If it wasn't for the clarity and understanding of his teachers, and the predictability of action=consequence, their use of consistent discipline strategies within the classes, he'd be in a much worse state.
So keep it up please, people like you are his best chance and he knows it as well as I do.

OooohWhatAFuss · 11/12/2009 08:10

This thread has gone a bit scary, however back to the OP... My main concern as a parent would be that he said all the other teachers ignore his behaviour! If you were talking to him, say at dinner, and he stopped listening in the middle of a sentence and put his head down on the table, would that be acceptable? Bonkers for your DS to think that this is ok at 16 (even an immature 16, the primary children I teach would know this is not on)

cory · 11/12/2009 10:16

claig Thu 10-Dec-09 23:11:50
"cory you are right that different levels of jobs are treated differently by employers. I was really referring to skilled jobs, where it is not easy to replace the employee and where a great investment has been made in the employee. For instance a top performing salesperson would not be easily dismissed by the employer because the employer values their skills. "

But surely someone who pretended to go to sleep during sales or yawned visibly/audibly in front of customers would never be a top performing salesperson? Surely the skills that are valued in such a person are precisely the opposite of seeming bored and tired? Salespersons make sales through people skills and enthusiasm, don't they?

I am a university teacher whose salary depends on being able to attract (and retain), enough students to fill my courses. If I stop smiling and look bored, the students won't come so there won't be a job for me to do- quite regardless of how my boss values my skills.

All the successsful people I have ever known have had an air of "drive" and enthusiasm about them- otherwise you don't get to be successful.

cory · 11/12/2009 10:21

claig Fri 11-Dec-09 07:46:09
"scaryteacher, I agree it is a very hard and often thankless job that you do.

I am intrigued to know, if these techniques and sanctions work, why do we have a rising problem of indiscipline in classrooms, to the extent that many competent people are even put off from entering the profession."

If the Rising Tide of indiscipline was due to over-heavy sanctions, then you would have to show that sanctions were less heavy in schools before indiscipline started rising. Which was probably not the case?

abitchilly · 11/12/2009 10:34

I am a teacher and think claig actually makes very good points.

Scaryteacher sounds like a superb teacher. You don't find people like this all that often. I know a few and am always in awe.

In my early days of teaching I tried to emulate them, but soon discovered I just don't have their sheer force of character.

So I had to develop my own style and it sounds more similar to claig's ethos. However, I think both can work depending on the skills of the teacher.

Realistically, the teacher in the OP sounds like she was managing to fit into neither approach. A lot of the bits of information do sound like a loss of control - trying to be like the first type of teacher I talked about, but failing and not realising the failure.

I know we don't know the ins and outs of this case, but wanted to post because I think both scaryteacher and claig have valid viewpoints that are actually not necessarily in opposition - they can co-exist.

claig · 11/12/2009 10:37

cory there are many successful people who are ruthless cunning arrogant etc. but are still very effective. Just think of the many cases of investment bankers on millions being sued by their employees for the arrogant and bullying treatment that they are subjected to.

Many successful salespeople can turn on the charm when needed, but can be hell to work with for their peers. It takes all sorts and inappropriate behaviour is often excused if somebody is successful or talented.

Success often leads to hubris.

If you read biographies of successful people, you will find many examples where people skills were not their forte, but rather a self-centred drive that is prepared to ride roughshod over other people.

abitchilly · 11/12/2009 10:38

Oh and a zero tolerance system has to be just that, a system that pervades the school. Support for the teacher must be strong.

Otherwise it simply will not work for all but the most dynamic teachers.

claig · 11/12/2009 10:57

abitchilly I agree with you, both methods can work. There is no one size fits all solution. What works will depend on the nature and character of the teacher as well as the nature and character of the pupil.

Different techniques will work for different pupils, and the teacher needs to be able to read the situation and make the correct judgment, which is why it is so difficult.

abitchilly · 11/12/2009 11:14

aaaaand the teacher or a member of the department should have contacted you. I think that's poor.

finished now

cory · 11/12/2009 15:36

claig Fri 11-Dec-09 10:37:09
"cory there are many successful people who are ruthless cunning arrogant"

absolutely, ruthless cunning and arrogant with charm on tap - that's precisely what I'm saying! not slumping with their head on the table

a boss will go a long way to tolerate a person who gets things done

but that is not what this teacher is asked to tolerate

echt · 13/12/2009 00:59

The rising tide of indiscipline is down to:

  1. Inclusion of those with special needs without support.
  2. Closing down the PRUs (Pupil Referral Units) and putting the hapless children back in schools without support.
  3. Tying the hands of schools by making it very difficult to suspend/expel, but not supporting them in helping the students.
  4. Punishing schools financially if they expel (schools end up swopping shite students so as not incur penalties).
  5. Arsey parents with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement which does not extend to ensuring their children are prepared to learn.
  6. Senior managers in schools who do not back up their staff because of 3, 4 and 5.

None of the above applies to independent schools, who can do what they like, including palming off the behaviour issues they refuse to deal with; and are then held up as models by the government, of how state schools could be if only they could be arsed.

In addition, there's a shift in the general culture which values the individual at the expense of the mass; hence the importance of "self-esteem" divorced from actual achievement on which to base it.

ravenAK · 13/12/2009 01:38

I'd challenge your points 1 & 2 - students with SEN can be, & are, supported very effectively in mainstream schools, as can students with complex behavioural needs - depends on the student & the situation.

I'd agree with points 3-6.

echt · 13/12/2009 06:31

ravenAK -why would you challenge points 1 and 2? I said "without support" - that's the point. It's not the students themselves who are a problem, but the cheapskate government saving money while claiming to be doing the right thing by them.

claig · 13/12/2009 12:36

I think echt makes a good point about lack of support for teachers from the schools.
I think the lack of support is near enough inevitable because if a disciplinary policy is not working,
the school is likely to abandon the teacher rather than follow through with the ultimate sanction of expulsion.
This is because horrific expulsion figures would cause focus to be turned on the school, and the school would be asked to explain
why this course of action was necessary.

It seems to me that schools who encourage the quick fix of a zero tolerance policy are also very likely to abandon the
teacher if it goes wrong. Going back to the OP, the teacher involved is now leaving. I think this could have been near enough predicted
to happen based on the way she was managing the class. The zero tolerance policy gave her a quick fix for her immediate problem
but would inevitably create great resentment towards her, due to the perceived injustice of the sanction which was out of proportion to the original offence.
This would create far greater problems for her in the future as students would seek to undermine her at every opportunity.
The sanction of removing people from the class would become a paper tiger as it would have to be used more and more frequently.
Eventually more and more parents would write to the school asking what was going on, and the teacher would be reluctant to
explain herself to the angry parents. The teacher's head of department would then have to become involved and would draw the
conclusion that it must be something to do with the teacher's interaction with the class that is causing the problem, since the
same children were not having similar problems in other classes, where putting one's head on the table was ignored and did
not lead to escalating bad behaviour. The school would eventually blame it on the teacher and her inability to control the class effectively.
The teacher would then feel abandoned by the school and besieged in the classroom. Eventually she would have to leave for the
sake of her own health.

Zero tolerance is unlikely to work for the most disruptive pupils who don't give a damn, have little to lose, and enjoy the challenge.
If the school embarks on this tactic and is not prepared to follow it through by eventually expelling the pupil, then the school
will be left with a number of disaffected disruptive pupils who are no longer scared of the ineffective failing sanctions that are
used to try and control them.

Even murderers and lifers in prison are not dealt with by zero tolerance, because the prison service knows that they would
then become unmanageable and create a threat to the staff and the security of the prison. Even the police are reluctant
to impose fines on the public for minor offences such as littering because they know that this will alienate the public
and cut the police off from the community they serve.

The policy wonks who dream up these strategies will be the first ones to abandon the teachers when these policies blow up in their faces.
The path that this zero tolerance policy for children leads to can be seen in the following article www.usatoday.com/educate/ednews3.htm

mmrred · 13/12/2009 13:52

I have found zero tolerance very effective, actually - with certain pupils who don't have effective boundaries at home. Some genuinely don't know that 'no' means 'no' - they have learned that making a bigger and bigger fuss means the authority figure will back down - and they soon stop the behaviour when they realise they won't be allowed to be part of the class if they don't, and that they don't get masses of attention for it, either.

But it is one strategy that has to be carefully thought about.

claig · 13/12/2009 14:01

mmrred I agree that it can work for the essentially good natured children who will respond to it and adapt their behaviour, but in other cases it can also exacerbate the problem and the consequences of this will boomerang on the teacher.

Different pupils respond to different treatment, the danger of a zero tolerance policy is that it will be used inappropriately and excessively for minor issues in a one size fits all approach

ravenAK · 13/12/2009 21:12

Ah OK echt - sorry, I completely missed your point there!

I think the thing with zero tolerance is that it only works if students would rather be in your lesson than not.

It doesn't work if you're a failing teacher with no respect from the class, & it doesn't work with those students who've already decided that school has nothing to offer them.

scaryteacher · 14/12/2009 17:11

Claig, you still don't seem to get it. Zero tolerance is NOT a quick fix - it is a policy that takes time and effort to become ingrained for both staff and students. It takes huge amounts of effort and support by SMT. The benefits are huge.

I taught in a private school where there were badly behaved kids (I'd taught some of them in the state sector, only to then find them in the private school I had landed a job in), and have seen the reverse as well, and they were, to a boy, better behaved in the private sector, where the rules were spelt out and adhered to, and disruption of any kind was not tolerated.

When one of the boys I'd taught in the private school, then appeared at the comp I'd moved to, his behaviour deteriorated hugely, as the same level of discipline was not enforced. The lad in question did not fulfil his undoubted academic potential because all the teachers were not singing from the same hymn sheet.

You do not know why the teacher is leaving. She could be going on sabbatical for 6 months; she could be going for medical treatment; she could be moving away for family reasons; she could be going to be a Head of Department at another school - you are in no position to make an assumption that she is leaving due to the behaviour of the OP's son. Assumptions are the mother of all f**k ups (as they say in the military).

'the perceived injustice of the sanction which was out of proportion to the original offence.' I honestly don't think that 16 year olds trying to disrupt a maths lesson think like that.

'This would create far greater problems for her in the future as students would seek to undermine her at every opportunity.' Nope - they wouldn't, as she would ratchet them quickly up through the discipline levels/procedures, as I explained earlier.

'Eventually more and more parents would write to the school asking what was going on, and the teacher would be reluctant to
explain herself to the angry parents.' I was always delighted to explain to any parent exactly how their child behaved/misbehaved in my class. I invited some of them to come and watch how their little darlings were in class. You also assume that parents give a damn. An awful lot don't.

'The teacher's head of department would then have to become involved and would draw the
conclusion that it must be something to do with the teacher's interaction with the class that is causing the problem, since the
same children were not having similar problems in other classes, where putting one's head on the table was ignored and did
not lead to escalating bad behaviour. The school would eventually blame it on the teacher and her inability to control the class effectively.' Rubbish - how do you know the same children were not behaving badly in other lessons? Putting one's head on the table IS discourteous and bad manners and therefore IS bad behaviour. If a child felt ill and was allowed to rest their head on the table prior to calling the Nurse that is one thing; but if the OP's son had done that in my lesson, he would have been told off, and if the behaviour continued he would have been invited to explain himself to my HoD and his HoY at break after he had been sent to work for the rest of the lesson in my HoD's classroom, or I had had them removed by SMT. The teacher does not have a problem with the class as a whole, but with one particular student, so you are creating mountains out of molehills. There is always one pain in the arse in each class; however, it does not follow that the class is out of control at all.

'The teacher would then feel abandoned by the school and besieged in the classroom. Eventually she would have to leave for the
sake of her own health.' Again, methinks that you are creating imaginary scenarios to support your argument, rather than knowing anything about the reality of the classroom.

It is no good saying that different students respond to different treatment; you have to have a set of rules for behaviour in class which apply to everyone, and are consistently and firmly enforced. The students hate inconsistency more than anything else.

As for those students who don't want to be in school - internal exclusion can be an answer if they are constantly disruptive and interfere with the learning of those students who want to achieve.

claig · 14/12/2009 19:44

scaryteacher, you are right I don't get it and I am afraid I am unlikely to ever get it, I think zero tolerance is a dangerous mistake that looks good in management presentations, but has no place in human relations.

I agree that I am reading between the lines and making assumptions which could be wrong. I don't think it is the OP's son that caused her to leave per se. I think the way that she has dealt with the OP's son and the yawner are probably minor incidents in a long line line of similar minor incidents with other pupils, who were also probably removed for similar behaviour.

As the mother said, other parents have complained about this teacher, presumably over similar incidents. The teacher did not reply to the mother's note, and probably also didn't reply to other parents' notes, because I think she knew that she would have found it difficult to explain why she removed them for minor incidents. You would have replied because you would have felt confident and justified in your actions because you believe that zero tolerance is a good way to deal with these issues. But I am guessing that the teacher in question doubted her own justification and therefore did not want to face the parents, which is why she didn't reply to the mother. I am also guessing that she probably tried to avoid replying to other parents, and this was creating a bigger growing problem for her as her superiors would have to start getting involved.

I think you would be right to tell a pupil off for discourteous behaviour, raising your voice, shouting to demonstrate the seriousness of the issue, admonishing etc. are perfectly normal and proportionate methods. If someone had sent me out of the class when I was at school, it wouldn't have bothered me at all since I probably would not have liked that teacher or that class. I would have probably seen it as a break and looked forward to my next removal. But I know that it would also have increased my animosity towards that teacher which would have been bad news for both me and the teacher in the future. What I am questioning is, is it worth escalating matters to such an extent over minor incidents? Isn't there a better way to deal with this for both teacher and student?

Surely if a teacher was ratcheting many pupils up through discipline levels over relatively minor incidents, a superior would have to start asking whether all this was really necessary. The mother in the OP did give a damn and asked for an explanation and other parents also complained. Even parents who didn't give a damn about education would probably still complain after their children told them their one-sided take of events.

"Rubbish - how do you know the same children were not behaving badly in other lessons". I ttake the mother's word for it when she says that her son was doing well in other classes, and the fact that he hadn't complained to her about other teachers. Also the fact that he said that other teachers "ignored it" when he put his head on the table leads to me believe that he behaved similarly in other lessons and was not removed and caused no other major problems.

"The teacher does not have a problem with the class as a whole, but with one particular student". I am guessing that this was not about one student, but was more likely to be a pattern involving many students, the yawner being another.

"Eventually she would have to leave for the
sake of her own health.' Again, methinks that you are creating imaginary scenarios to support your argument, rather than knowing anything about the reality of the classroom."
I agree that I am guessing that this is what may have happened. I do not have experience of teaching a classroom, but I do have experience of being taught in a classroom and have seen both good and bad teachers and have drawn conclusions about what works from how successful these teachers were in managing a class. I also had rebellious and disruptive phases when I was at school, so I have a good idea how the pupil would see the situation. At our school a geography teacher had a nervous breakdown and never returned to the school. She was incapable of controlling the class and was in fact the only teacher who removed people from the class over minor issues. We saw this as a sign of weakness in that she was incapable of even controlling minor issues without using this sanction. We also guessed that if she had to remove half the class, then it wouldn't be us who suffered, because the school would inevitably blame her since this was happening in no other class.

"you have to have a set of rules for behaviour in class which apply to everyone, and are consistently and firmly enforced. The students hate inconsistency more than anything else."
I am slightly amazed that so many teachers on the forum couldn't see the OP's point of view and think that a zero tolerance polcy is a good way of dealing with children, because I think that it will do harm to the children and also the teachers and will eventually destroy the ethos of a school. I was glad that there are teachers such as abitchilly who do not fall hook line and sinker for this policy. In my opinion in 10 or 20 years time the experiment, like so many others, will probably be abandoned as a mistake, but in the meantime it will have harmed many children and created a self-fullfing prophecy where the normal noisterous rebellious disruptive behaviour of many children will be escalated so that they are eventually removed and placed on the scrapheap.

I am all for discipline, but where the treatment is fair and proportionate rather than zero tolerance which is a consistent tick the box style of management without discrimination, understanding, empathy or justice. The best way of dealing with people is still the old "do unto others" approach, otherwise if you treat them overly harshly you will get the same in return, which leads to a vicious cycle and ends up helping nobody.

londonone · 14/12/2009 19:54

Claig - given that you think shouting is a good way to reprimand someone it is eveident that you do not have the faintest clue about how behaviour management works. You have never taught, being taught is not the same as teaching. I would not presume to know better than a surgeon how to operate on the basis that I have had surgery. Your ignorance shines through in your posts and I wonder exactly what your agenda is.

claig · 14/12/2009 20:18

I have no agenda. I am in management and am therefore interested in management issues and do have experience with behaviour management in so far as I have dealt with many difficult situations with employees. The reason that I first replied to this thread was that I was frankly amazed that nearly every poster could not sympathize at all with the OP.

I think shouting is OK for certain situations, I have been shouted at by teachers in the past and it worked.

Rainbowinthesky · 14/12/2009 20:21

Claig - not read teh rest of the thread just your last post. I speak as a senior very experienced teacher and you really have no idea of what it means to teach, really you don't.

claig · 14/12/2009 20:25

Rainbowinthesky point taken, I agree I am not a teacher, and I accept I may be wrong

londonone · 14/12/2009 21:55

Really management of employees is NOTHING like behaviour management of children/students, they are completely different skill sets. That is one of the reasons many members of SMT are often rubbish at managing staff, great with kids, rubbish with staff!

claig · 14/12/2009 22:07

I agree that children are more difficult to manage, because they are still learning and exploring how far they can push boundaries, whereas adults will usually have gained the knowledge of what acceptable boundaries are.

But that is also why children are more likely to make mistakes in their behaviour and therefore need to be shown a degree of leniency and understanding.