Should Private School Pupils be eligible for Grammar Schools?

[INeedWine]

Doesn't it go against the whole principle of offering a good education to children who couldn't otherwise afford it?

Well that's a radical approach that even New Labour haven't considered - means-testing state education.

I thought people wanted naice middle class children in state schools

Not so apparently

I know someone who was a governor at a private school (quite a well known one) and they don't encourage pupils to take the 11+ because they want them to keep paying the fees....

To be honest, Morosky, a school that suits your child is the best one, regardless of its 'type'. The only problem is finding it, recognising it and getting a place at it.

After that it's all plain sailing!

I wouldn't want to send my DSs to a grammar school ar all. When moving out of London and choosing an area to live we actively discounted those areas operating a grammar system and deliberately chose somewhere with a fully comprehensive system instead.

I wouldn't choose grammar schools either. When we moved 3 years ago we avoided grammar school areas, mostly out of principle as we like the idea of a more inclusive system, and now my dc are approaching secondary age I'm massively relieved at a more personal level not to be living somewhere where my dc would very likely be segregated into successes and failures aged 10. I have one who would almost certainly pass any selective exam. And another who would very likely not get in (a quirky dreamy creative type, not the sort who does well in tests) but who would certainly mind bitterly.

But all nice middle class prep school children are very welcome to join my dc in their future state comp. The more the merrier

QC - they want the middleclass children to go to sink schools, not grammars, because they have the arrogance to assume that naice middle class kids will pull up the rest of the school, and that working class parents are oiks who are too dim or uncaring as not to be involved in schools. Don't look for any logic amidst the social engineering lobby.

In our area the bright dcs go to grammar and the not so bright go to either the local comp or non-selective private. I was told very firmly by the LEA that they had no interest in my child seeing a Ed Psych because he was private. Apparently that was my choice and they do not have any contact with the private schools in the area. I find that rather hard to believe but at this stage haven't pursued it.

At both the main local prep schools there is active discouragement towards the 11+. At ours because of the associated senior school where they want the children to go. At the other because they want them to stay until 13 and do Common Entrance.

As far as choosing our local comps it is too early to decide but from their results and what I see of their pupils there is only one I would chose and ds would have to have a sex change to attend!

ByTheSea, private prep schools don't prepare for grammar schools - they don't prepare for the 11+.

Most private preps prepare for Common Entrance or want their pupils to join their senior section (if they have one).

11+ tutoring is carried out separately by the parents paying tutors out of school same as in the state system

Not always true Cammelia.

Girls preps with no attached senior school will often coach specifically for a good local grammar as girls in the private system go on to senior school at age 11, same age as state sector. They often use this as a big selling point as an attractive alternative to subjecting your DCs to lots of after school coaching and the stress involved. This is certainly true in my area.

Boys preps usually have boys until 13 as private senior schools usually start at this age, so they are not geared to the 11+ as this would mean boys leaving early. However, an increasing number of boys preps and mixed preps are starting to work to the age 11 move as well.

Cammelia

I must admit I thought the same as you until finding out (courtesy of MN) that there are a number of preps that are not attached to secondary schools who do coach for grammar school entry.

Which seems totally absurd to me, on a number of levels.

Apparently some grammar schools actually test stuff children have learned (rather than simple V/NV reasoning). Many state primaries do not even teach the maths that the grammars are testing until the end of Y6, if then. This all makes it virtually impossible for a child from a state primary to get to the grammars in question unless they have been tutored.

Seems barking but this is apparently what happens.

It's certainly absurd and grossly unfair if grammars are really testing on stuff that most state school pupils won't have covered yet. But that's an issue for the state sector to sort out, not the fault of the private schools or tutors.

11+ should not assume knowledge beyond the previous term's national curriculum content. That doesn't preclude novel questions which a bright child can work out.

Most of the preps round here finish at 11 and a major selling point is the number of children that get grammar school places each year. That suggests that they prepare them pretty extensively.

All secondary schools start at 11 locally so there's no point in preps going on until 13.They used to but most people left so it was uneconomic.I've heard of children going to local independent secondary schools from 11 -13 and then taking Common Entrance in yr 8 and moving on to public school at 13.

I knew it was the case for some but I thought most wouldn't.

I do know of a state grammar in Kent which starts at 13 and entry consists not only of VR/NVR but also an exam of Maths, English and possibly Science.

It strikes me that year 6 for state primaries is geared towards SAT results not 11+ in a lot of areas so when they are scarpped that should free up time to ensure that the maths in particular is up to the required standard.

Of course they bloody should! They're not a different species.

They should.

Well, actually, I don't think there should be grammar schools at all, but while there are they should be open to anyone who meets their entrance requirements, however intelligent