When you can never be part of the 'elect'

[abraid]

I used to think that the queen bee syndrome was, as the name suggests, a girl 'thing'. But my son, just finishing year 7, has been struggling on the fringes of a group of very sporty boys who are all very talented. My son is OK but not as good as the others. They seem to tolerate him at breaks, and one of them is a good mate. One seems to have nothing but disdain for him and another blows hot and cold.

He's just handed out some party invitations and the latter of these boys (the most talented and worshipped of them all) said 'Oh God!' when he thought my son wasn't listening. I have gently suggested that it might be better to concentrate more on the other boys in his year (it's an all-boys' school), many of whom he gets on well with and who would, I think, have more in common with my son.

But he's adamant that this group is where he wants to be. I'm praying they all get split up again next year when they move class. It just seems he's setting himself up for disappointment.

Has anyone any advice on how to deal with this? It may be there's nothing I can do: he's probably old enough to make his own choices. I do encourage him to invite the non-sports gods round in the holidays and they invite him back, but he still seems to gravitate towards this group.

Grow up Anna - not a chip, but years of picking up students going through this, and I loathe the fact that being sporty is the yard stick by which the boys are judged. I would far rather have an academic child than a sporty one - and yes, academics ARE a lot of the point of school - good GCSEs/ A-levels and a degree will get you further than being able to throw a ball.

I also find that the non sporty types are the more pleasant students who have interests outside sport; who are prepared to dig a little deeper than face value, or the 'right' clothes to see if they like someone or not. Being tribal is what I would expect in Year 6; I'm looking for greater maturity in my students by the end of year 8.

As to the 'right' clothing comment - grrrrr. This one makes my blood boil, as not all students can afford the 'right' clothing - some parents have enough trouble feeding their kids, let alone making sure they have the latest Nikes, or whatever is brand name of the minute. These children, however talented are then excluded because they don't fit. That's alright then is it Anna?

Yes of course it's all right - it's more than all right. And if you cannot see that, you are really blind to adolescence and what it is all about

Thanks, everyone. It's interesting to see the different perspectives. I'm glad I posted because I feel better just for writing it. My son seems happier about it now, too, and has had acceptances from the 'non-Alphas'.

abraid - I wrote a bit about this in a recent thread about choosing schools for non-sporty boys.

Some schools have the ethos of sport being regarded above all other activities. Your son needs your support and encouragement in excelling elsewhere. All part of growing up experiences but I do also wonder if the ring leader of this gang is also a bit of a manipulative bully.

Thanks, ABD. He loves his sport: it's just he's never going to be the county champion at anything. There are lots of other things on offer, too at the school. We have had a chat about it tonight and I have again gently suggested cultivating the friends he has outside this little group, some of whom also like sport but don't see it as the very stuff of existence.

So it's fine for children from less privileged backgrounds to be excluded from the 'elect' because their parents can't afford to buy them the latest 'right' clothes? I call that prejudice and discrimination actually, and I think it is far from alright. I'm pretty sure if attitudes like that are carried through into adult life then the people in question will fall foul of the law at some stage.

I am far from blind to adolescence and what it is all about Anna - I have an adolescent of my own, and I have taught 11-18s for all of my teaching career. What I do not teach them is to judge on clothes and sporting abilities, but on how their peers treat other people. I teach them that every one has different talents and that one size (sport for example) doesn't fit all.

If you think adolescence is about being tribal, then I think you misunderstand what it is about, and that you are perpetuating the misery that goes on for many youngsters every year. Lets hope your dcs don't end up outside any tribes.

ime there is no direct correlation between queen bee behaviour in your teens and any measurable success or usefulness later in life

some of the yardsticks of success for 12yos are really very shallow and unlikely to be much of a predictor for later life

but agree with other posters that your ds has to find this out for himself

This is an interesting thread. My ds is in year 9 of an all boys school. They are very Rugby orientated, nothing else touches it. My son has never been in to it, or is very good at it, but has one very close friend who is, and several other mates who are in the team. It really has never been an issue, not 1%. He likes football, and is ok at running though, but no way would do it fater school to keep up with anyone!

He has a nice group of mates, they are all very easy and relaxed with each other. No falling out, no competitiveness. this is how I expected it to be because I think boys are far nore laid back than boys. i would say ds doesn't even try to keep up. He isn't bothered about clothes (just loves his trackie bottoms and a t shirt)- despite me trying to modernise him! He will make an effort if he is going out- jeans and a nice T, adidas trainers.

I would say your sons mates are not true friends at all, and he should look for another hobby to get talking to others. But I know my ds had made his firm friends by the end of Y7, and they havent changed at all.

I am continually suprised at work by how many of the ugliest geekiest seemingly delta kids are popular and included.

( and it heartens me greatly)

'The geeks shall inherit the earth'

I certainly haven't noticed that .

Adolescence is about being tribal, and taking time to work out which tribe you feel most comfortable with. It doesn't have to be super aggressively so, but it is really important for parents and teachers not to have preconceived ideas about which tribe they would like a child to be in (or think "would be best").

And telling children whose parents cannot afford stuff for them to despise those children whose parents perversely can leads to those children believing they don't deserve nice things and a nice life.

In life we are all indeed different. Geeky is not better than sporty; children need to find out for themselves where they want to be.

Thanks again, everyone. Some interesting food for thought. He's gone off to school in a cheerful mood, anyway, so he's obviously feeling better.

You misread my post. I did NOT say that it was the poorer children who despised the richer; but that it was those who have, who tend to exclude those who have not based on your example of the 'right' clothing. You agreed that it was fine for the poorer children to be excluded from the elect on that basis.

I also vehemently disagree with you about having preconceived ideas about which tribe you would like your children to be with....'oh that's fine, have a great time deciding if you want to be with the druggies today dear'. I don't think so. My duty as a parent is to ensure that my ds is not involved in what I think is the wrong tribe, and to discourage him from being with them. I have seen what happen when parents aren't firm enough, and I am not going to let that happen in my family. I am not there to be ds's best friend, but his parent, and that means saying no firmly and loudly on occasions.

Good luck to you, scaryteacher, engineering your adolescents' lives for them!

Bonsoiranna, would it really not bother you if your dc got in with the 'druggie crowd'?
You wouldn't attempt to steer a child of yours away from that sort of life.
Granted you might not have any success but surely it would be worth a try.

I went to a school where there were lots of drugs. Since my mother had carefully prepped me and my sister during our primary years about drugs, we were never tempted (even if we were friends with children who did do drugs). If you are engineering your children's adolescence you probably didn't do what you needed to do during their childhood.

"If you are engineering your children's adolescence you probably didn't do what you needed to do during their childhood."

And peer pressure, wanting to be part of the crowd has no influence at all then.

Whether an adolescent was attracted to that type of thing would also be dependant on personality and peers among other things.

Of course peer pressure has an influence - which is a good thing. Adolescents fiercely need to be exposed to influences beyond those of their parents in their teenage years.

You need to make sure that you have got the very important stuff in place when they are little so that they have the necessary survival skills to reject real danger and navigate (try and test) the options during the relative security of teenage years, when parents and home are still around to provide a secure backdrop.

Otherwise you risk your children either derailing, or else not exploring their options properly.

Adolescence is about so much more than school work.

So what do you do when they interpret real danger as something exciting and the idea is reinforced by peers who encourage them, dismissing parental warnings/advice.

Obviously you need to keep a very close eye on things all the time and nip things that are seriously dangerous in the bud. And maybe you have a very reckless child who despite your best intentions and preparation is very easily led.

But I do think, always, that education is the very best sort of preparation for new experiences. If you have not had lots of conversations during their primary years with your children about drugs, sex, alcohol etc, how on earth can they reasonably be expected to navigate those things to their own advantage when they come across them?

Y7 is the hardest year of all their school years (DSs are 17 and 13). I think the key to his happiness and self-acceptance is your son finding his thing, be it chess, tennis, maths or creative writing.

Just as an aside, if sporting excellence is important to your son, and he is reasonably atheletic, then it is far easier to excel in an obscure sport. Football seems to me to be the only real option for boys. But there are lots of options out there.

Just look at Tom Dayly, admittedly he got to the olympics aged 13, but how many other boys in his school do you think took up diving as a sport? If your son chooses something less popular, then the chances are he may well be the best person in the school at it. Aged 19 I took up a sport and rapidly ended up playing at national level. Not, I hasten to add, because I am in any way talented, but because so few people played it, the pool of players was small enough to allow a slight klutz like me to flourish.

I agree with you bonsoiranna about the conversations from an early age. Unfortunately, for some children, it all seems to fly out the window once puberty hits and popular peers can become attractive proposition despite going against all the early parental advice.