Oxbridge advice please

[faustina]

could do with some help - ds currently in year 12 and wants to go to Oxbridge. there's a small group of friends who plan same but to date the only support they've been given was in year 11 when a girl who'd received an offer gave them a little talk one lunchtime. Absolutely nothing else. Help was promised in september, then after Christmas, then after easter - now changed to "in September". Is this normal?
I've read about oxbridge entrance courses that you can do privately - has anyone gone down this route? I haven't heard many good things about them - eg they aren't that useful
ds applied for the eton summer school but received total non-reference from head of 6th form. He said "what do you want me to put" and of course ds has no idea how to write a ref so said" well could you put that I can't study these subjects at school (ppe) and so I would really like to do them"". And that's exactly what he did put - nothing else. It wouldn't have occurred to ds that something about his abilities and personal qualities is what's needed in a ref.. No idea how they choose people for summer school but sure this can't have helped.

Academically ds more than capable, but no-one receiving any real encouragement from school. am not pushing oxbridge but feel if he does want to go he will need to extra help and time seems to be running out for this. any ideas? He has already worked his way through the reading list the girl gave them. There's almost nothing extra curricular offered at his school academically - he did debating society and loved it but that ended in january when they went out of the mace competition, and he's done a shakespeare production and loved that too.
he's doing history, maths, chemistry and religious philosphy and ethics as levels and predicted as, he got 10 a* 1 a and 1 b for gcses
he is at a state school but we are not in a category that can apply for any of the schemes for would-be students who are disadvantaged in any way - eg, sutton, aim higher etc etc

I help with Oxbridge admissions some years.

1. School clearly has no idea what to do, but you might help by going in to see them and demanding they write glowing things on the reference for university, if they hold your son in high regard. Fiddle faddling about cutting corners on references will not do at all. We would need to see that your son is one of the brightest students they have had for a while, and exactly why they think this.

1. DS needs to mix with as many bright sixth formers as possible from now on, and learn to really hold his own in an argument academically. If the Eton summer school doesn't come off, contact the AimHigher and Widening Participation people at Oxford and Cambridge and get advice about Open Days and other related events that might help achieve this. Get him to lead a study group of all the other interested young people in his sixth form as well.

1. "Why do you want to study PPE?" will probably be the first question asked and your DS should have a detailed understanding of the course from the prospectus etc and also explain why the different parts link up - in other words, why does he think they created a course like that in the first place? How does it differ from SPS at Cambridge? How might he explain a recent current affairs event in terms of the P and the P and the E? That kind of thing.

1. Don't waste your money on crammer type courses for Oxbridge entrance because they don't work, despite what the institutions will tell you to get your money off you.

1. The personal statement should be honest and beautifully crafted. It counts for a lot.

1. Apply as early as possible, and do not wait until the last minute or he will end up pooled at best.

Hope that helps.

I don't know how necessary it is to plan ahead for Oxford or Cambridge, but there are certainly quite a few conferences going on about now to give Year 12 student the heads-up.

On a practical note, the UCAS deadline for Oxbridge is in October - a couple of months earlier than for everyone else. This means that they need to get off the ground running on returning to school in September.

The main thing at this stage is for your DS to pick the course that he wants to study and then work towards making his UCAS statement as compelling as possible, showing that he is passionate about the subject. He needs to show interest in the subject by reading about it, going on a taster course in the summer, and, if possible, getting some work experience related to it.

Good point ScienceTeacher - a lot of people get confused about the deadline thing. By early December we are frantically interviewing.

Some great advice here, far better than any I can give I have no experience from running admissions, but I did go to Cambridge.

The thing I found that helped at interview, aside from the academic stuff, was having something to say that was a little unusual - making myself stand out in the tutor's mind, not necessarily just academic brilliance (everyone applying has that!) but something about me more personally.

So things like - why I wanted to be there ("because of the academic reputation" is why everyone wants to be there, so coming up with something different helps you stand apart) or unusual extra-curricular activities (being heavily involved in cricket was considered quite 'different' for a girl so again gave me something to talk about with admissions tutor!)

Like your DS, I also did a slightly unusual mix of A levels (maths and humanities in my case) and being able to explain why I'd done that and what I got out of them and why I loved that mix all helped I think. Particularly useful for a course like PPE which is multi-disciplinary.

Obviously I'm basing this just on my interviews, but I do remember that it was those things which we ended up talking about the most in my interviews, so I can't help but think that this is what helped the tutors remember me. I think a couple of things like that which you can be passionate about, but which aren't things they hear from every applicant can probably help you stand out in their minds, and are much more valuable than being able to fill in pages and pages of impressive but blander, more standard academic achievements.

I should add to that that there is a fairly standard marking scheme for the interviews, a bit like fair selection for job applicants, so at the end of the day a lot of it comes down to that. People do come in and say they like taking part in musical activities, are good rowers and so on, but that isn't really going to get you in. It's the hard edged academic debate that does, and that's what impresses the recruiters.

PS It has all changed massively in the last five years and all the interviewers are supposed to have had training as well, to make it as consistent across the colleges as possible, and to reduce quirkiness.

We can spot those who have been coached a mile off as they seem rather dull.

Yes but it's getting less and less IMO. really the standard is going up and I honestly believe it's got a lot fairer of late.

Lazy bastards. But I confess I did used to hear some related comments in the SCR in days of yore. However I am not sure people would be so open now about their prejudices if they thought like that. It's very off message.

I don't think it wouldn't happen on my patch now, not least because we're mainly a bunch of lefties. Personally I shuffle through the applications and read the Access ones first, because I was a comprehensive school teacher for years and have a good track record in spotting future talent that way. At the end of the day, though, people have to be able to survive small group teaching and rigorous academic debate, plus cope with a monster workload. That's what we're after.

The deadline for applications to Oxbridge through UCAS is usually around 15 October. The deadline for applications to other universities is Jan 15th so he does need to be ready with his application by October.

I think you ought to contact the Head at the school and make sure they realise about the deadlines so that his academic reference can be written by a member of staff in time. I would have thought they would be glad students are aiming high and be as supportive as possible. What sort of school is it? Do they generally send students to university?

Look on all the individual websites of the colleges at Oxford/Cambridge. There is a wealth of information on there about the application process.

The UCAS website is also very informative, it has a section on who should write the academic reference, personal statements etc.

This is really stating the obvious, but as your school seems to be so unhelpful, your son does realise he can only apply to Oxford OR Cambridge and not both?

oh how kind you all are to help - thank you so much. The whole point of the eton summer school was that they did a taster for politics and economics. i have searched and searched and as yet not found any other similar that we qualified for. there's alot for students who come from a disadvantaged background, or low income families, or have parents who didn't go on to higher education but none for us.

there were some challenge days for G&T year 12s at cambridge earlier in the year. When I saw the head of g&t at his school last year (year 11) he promised he'd be happy to write a ref. for my son for any activity like this - it was one of the reasons we decided to keep him at the school rather than switch to sixth form college, or a selective school. there is a small group of bright boys at school who all wanted to do this kind of stuff - anyway come last september I spoke to him, gave him the dates, the web links, the names of the boys who wanted to go, even promised one of the mothers with the right clearance if they needed a chaperone. By end of october I saw the days were marked fully booked and went to the parents evening and asked what had happened - why they hadn't applied (you have to get the school to apply - you can't go individually) - and he said another teacher was now head of g&T and he'd passed the details on but couldn't say why nothing had been done. They also did a chemistry masterclass which I got to find out about two weeks after the closing date, and they said at the school that they hadn't been told about it until too late also.

the only thing we could apply for without the school's reference was the cambridge student union open day which three of them went to last week. There are official open days at cambridge and oxford in july which they'll be going to also. (not with the school)

the eton summer school reference fiasco was the last straw for me - how can I be confident that they're going to write a good (and accurate) ucas reference after that? Feel that each time I ask anything it is adversely affecting ds's chances and that I am marked down as pushy mother from hell

he adores arguing, is champion school arguer. won prize from lovely re teacher on trip to rome for bludgeoning a priest into admitting maybe contraception wasn't such a bad thing after all. He devours philosophy books - has read entire list they gave the girl who went last year, and whatever else he can find in my bookshelves and in the bookshop he works in on saturdays

the trouble is, I'm not sure he feels the same about the p and the e - I think he possibly thinks this would be a more "useful" degree than straight philosophy, and of course that's totally the wrong reason to choose a subject (especially when it's such an oversubscribed one)

I've been sending him to a lovely tutor for two years for maths and chemistry - not to get better grades, but to go beyond the curriculum and she's been brilliant with him.

I just wish there was something similar for economics and politics - even if it would just help him to decide whether he REALLY wants to study these subjects. I think he is doing fine with self-motivation for philosophy.

I understand about the crammers and don't really think they'd be that useful. am ok about helping with ucas personal statement, have done one with eldest ds already. Know how it has to be original and come straight from him (not me or web)

I am doing my best to encourage, but feel there's no support from the school at all. Even looked at changing schools after the eton thing but of course it's too late now.

there is a small group of likeminded boys but not wanting to be sexist or anything, they are boys - the girls cover their walls with revision notes and have tidy desks and worry alot - my ds reads marx and descartes voraciously half the night, makes stop motion films with little plasticine men and then goes in the next morning and gets 100% for whatever test it is. His progress reports go: predicted grade: A on target: yes - for all his subjects - that's lovely of course, but not exactly challenging him on to greater things

bags for life - yes he does realise it has to be one or the other - he prefers cambridge as a place, but didn't like the contents of the SPS - too much sociology (I think that's what he said)

At Oxford, I'm sure there used to be Subject based open days/ afternoons organised by the individual colleges in the spring/summer before you applied (ie from now on if he's in Y12). Might be worth contacting a few of the individual colleges? If no open days, then at least they could send some materials, eg reading lists, prospectus etc. Lots of colleges would be happy to arrange individual visits too, I'd have thought, eg, just to look around the grounds and get a "feel" of the place.

bellabelly - they don't do one for ppe - I looked. You just book for an individual college - I will get him to ask about ppe when we book the college day but it's not until july and it would be useful if he could have some more of an idea before this time

EG open days at somerville, oxford 1&2 July

Oh ok - the somerville one is probably just a general one then (I just looked at that one cos it's my old college). Do they still do the alternative prospectus? That was quite helpful for getting the students' point of view about colleges and courses.

he was given the cambridge alternative one last week, will see if there's an oxford one - thank you bellabelly : )

bagsforlife it's a catholic comprehensive - they do well in the tables - I think it's more the top end of things they have a problem with - also bottom end, but that's another story - eldest ds had profound dyslexia which was only diagnosed at 18

It sounds as though the school is in a bit of a muddle. Maybe they will get their act together in September and start going full steam ahead into university applications. Your son sounds as though he is perfectly capable of applying without any help at all!

As long as the school does it's stuff when it's meant to, ie by the deadlines, he can look into everything else himself and get his Personal Statement perfected over the summer holidays. That is the most important part and with his interests in debating etc, he sounds like the perfect candidate.
Looking into everything himself, rather than the school doing everything for him, could be seen as 'initiative' and earn him a few more brownie points, as it were (trying to look on positive side....).

You only have to do Sociology in the first years of SPS. Plus they are changing the course a bit anyway (can't remembed new acronym at the moment). But it is madly competitive, just like PPE, so just Philosophy on its own might be more sensible than you think as an application strategy.

Sorry - meant to say first year (Pt I). Also applying to a slightly less fashionable college improves your chances statistically.

also have a look at St Andrews - my dh turned down PPE at Oxford to go there to do Philosophy and International Relations - you do a 4 year course and get an MA at the end. He's not here at the moment (at a cup final) for me to ask him more but I know he said that the course was much better regarded