Oxbridge advice please

[faustina]

could do with some help - ds currently in year 12 and wants to go to Oxbridge. there's a small group of friends who plan same but to date the only support they've been given was in year 11 when a girl who'd received an offer gave them a little talk one lunchtime. Absolutely nothing else. Help was promised in september, then after Christmas, then after easter - now changed to "in September". Is this normal?
I've read about oxbridge entrance courses that you can do privately - has anyone gone down this route? I haven't heard many good things about them - eg they aren't that useful
ds applied for the eton summer school but received total non-reference from head of 6th form. He said "what do you want me to put" and of course ds has no idea how to write a ref so said" well could you put that I can't study these subjects at school (ppe) and so I would really like to do them"". And that's exactly what he did put - nothing else. It wouldn't have occurred to ds that something about his abilities and personal qualities is what's needed in a ref.. No idea how they choose people for summer school but sure this can't have helped.

Academically ds more than capable, but no-one receiving any real encouragement from school. am not pushing oxbridge but feel if he does want to go he will need to extra help and time seems to be running out for this. any ideas? He has already worked his way through the reading list the girl gave them. There's almost nothing extra curricular offered at his school academically - he did debating society and loved it but that ended in january when they went out of the mace competition, and he's done a shakespeare production and loved that too.
he's doing history, maths, chemistry and religious philosphy and ethics as levels and predicted as, he got 10 a* 1 a and 1 b for gcses
he is at a state school but we are not in a category that can apply for any of the schemes for would-be students who are disadvantaged in any way - eg, sutton, aim higher etc etc

oh god yes - this whole thing about choosing colleges. At cambridge ds was told not to worry because if you don't care, you go as an open applicant, and if you name a college and they don't want you, but they think someone else might,you get passed around? Is this broadly true?

I'll have a look at when the st Andrews open day is, have also heard good things about it (inwardly shuddering at distance from suffolk and kissing goodbye to last hope of possible week away on own this summer)

By the way - is it completely cruel of me to prefer ds to go to these things, if possible, with two friends also interested in the same course? When I was doing all this kind of thing everyone went on their own - it would have been bizzarre to take your mother along. I sent my eldest on his own once, and then went with him to interviews because he said he had been the only one on his own.

the cambridge visit last week was just the three boys and I thought it was quite nice them learning how to do trains, buses, maps etc, plus being forced to not rely on social skills of parent but still having two friends to give confidence and discuss things with.

for the more official open days in july would it be weird if they went off again (assuming all still interested) in a group? (nothing to do with wanting to go away myself - I just think they got more out of the visit last week without their parents)

Yes, you can make an 'open' application certainly to Cambridge, not specifying a college.

Yes, it is also true, you can be 'pooled' which means the college originally applied to may have not offered a place but the application is passed on to other colleges. This doesn't necessarily mean you will definitely get a place though(I think, ready to be corrected though). I have a feeling one of my DCs contemporaries was 'pooled' and then didn't get a place, but I could be wrong.

Our oldest went to look around universities by herself (we didn't know any different!) but our second wanted us to go to with him, so we did. I don't think it 'matters' either way, if they are confident enough to go on trains and public transport that's all good really.

If you meet the entry requirements and perform to a certain standard at interview, the theory is you get pooled and then another college will most likely offer you a place. That's the theory, anyway. Basically the other colleges have a look at your paperwork and cherry pick the best. Sometimes we tip other colleges off if there is someone in the pool we thing they would be particularly interested in for some reason.

However if you apply to an unfashionable (ie modern) college for an unfashionable subject (eg Classics), statistically your chances of a place are improved. The stats are on the Cambridge website somewhere, so you can play a highly strategic numbers game if you prefer.

Boeuffinmum and bagsforlife thank you for helpful info. Don't think ds interested in oxbridge or bust type strategy - does that really happen? Isn't it kind of obvious when people apply for courses that they've chosen on that basis?

also he was really keen on the idea of one of the older central colleges. Have been looking through alternative cambridge thing just now as part of ironing avoidance and there are several which seem to stress his main non-academic interests - art, drama, and music

I know a lot about this but don't know what I can add to the others.

PPE is very competitive and standards are high. Chances of being passed around are rather less than most subjects (unless a college has a very dud year and needs extras, but that is rare). A good 'score' is needed in all three subjects at interview as people are often rejected as being unsuitable on a 3rd of the course (it is very hard to agree upon whom to admit for ppe).

Your DS should read up on colleges. Some want more and better state school applicants (St Peter's springs to mind here). If he goes to open days, he should try to engage with the subject tutor, not just listen to them. As well going to open days, it might be a good idea to phone the admissions tutor at a college and say how little help he's getting (and ask for advice) - they might be willing for him to have a personalised day there or for him to be included on access days.

BTW I feel for your DS. It's quite a common problem and a lot of good potential students don't get in.

(Coaching does not work though, especially in philosophy.)

chaotica - thank you! I have looked up st. Peter's and notice that they have a philosophy essay competition for year 12s which I'll tell ds about

re - the good "score" in all three subjects is as I'd thought and just "thinking it might be interesting" really isn't enough

do you really think they might let him be included on an access day if I phone to explain? Wouldn't I just be classified as a pushy mother?

do you know anything about pembroke college? It's the only one where I might possibly be able to use a family connection (although he's retired now)

What about this book?I don't know anything about it but someone else might be able to say whether it really is useful.

I think it would be quite out of date now from what the reviews say. Things have changed a lot.

thanks norksdrift - I read it - it has mixed reviews. I gave it to current dh who is american and he said "they are all insane - why would you want your ds to go to a place like that? - they sound like arcane secret societies where you can only get in if you know the special handshake"

I think you should get your son to phone/email the university/individual college, then you won't be seen as Pushy Mother. I can't understand why the school isn't being helpful. What's the matter with them?

BTW - it occurred to me after the last post I did... Being interested (without prior background in a subject) is good enough if you've read background/are up to date on the news etc and can answer intelligent general questions about the subject. Eg. for economics (last december) a popular question was about why the Bank of England had lowered interest rates (what would be the intended benefit? what could the problems be? who would be at a disadvantage as a result of this? and so on). Students are also usually asked to interpret a graph/chart of some kind.

Most importantly, prospective students need to be able to show that they can reason about a subject (and about the information/reading that they might be given). It is common for people to not answer the question, or to give the answer the they think the tutor wants.

I think your son should get in touch rather than you (if possible).

Good luck

Have you heard of Villiers Park?

"is it completely cruel of me to prefer ds to go to these things, if possible, with two friends also interested in the same course?"

As you know, Oxbridge are totally oversubscribed and they have to find ways of simplifying their selection task. One easy way to do this is to look closely at the one or two best child(ren) from each school, as idenified by the glowing reference ... 'best student we have had for years' blah blah blah.
I'm afraid that his friends are his worst competition. Make sure that they all apply to different Colleges!

I would 2nd Boeuffin Mum's advice to pick an unknown college unless there is some desperate reason otherwise - especially if you have some great reason why you think that college is fantastic and the only place in the world you would want to go (nothing like a bit of flattery).

Mind you, do your homework first, or you may end up like me 2 miles out of town doing a lot of cycling having had a romantic notion of Girton as a milestone in women's history and not knowing the first thing otherwise about Cambridge or its geography

Have you not heard from Eton summer school yet? Dd1 and her friends heard last week and only one got a place. If you haven't heard that may be a good sign - perhaps those who have got in are contacted later. Fingers crossed for you.

Has anyone posted this link yet, I couldn't see it on a quick skim of the topic

Everything you need to know about PPE at Oxford University - it has 3000 posts so you will need to do a bit of skimming!

This is from the Student Room forum, which has a busy and comprehensive Oxbridge subsection. We found this very useful in our run-up to applications (my daughter is currently at Oxford, not PPE though).

I have been trying to steer two of my school bunnies towards Oxbridge and Imperial. We have already been working on the UCAS statement and the applications will be ready to fly as soon as the bell sounds for UCAS in September. Visits booked etc

Bear in mind that applicants will need an A in all of the A level modules not just the overall final grade. Not sure if mine will get the A* that Cambridge are now specifying.

Good luck

I am so grateful to all of you. I received more help here yesterday than I have during my son's entire four years at his upper school. Both boys who applied to the eton summer school heard several weeks ago at least.

thanks for the villiers park link - I had heard of them ages ago. Last time I looked they were one of the places that would only accept applications with a school reference. Didn't realise there was downloadable information. Will pass economics and philosophy links to ds when he wakes up.

ds came home from his dad's yesterday evening and he is more amenable to the idea of philosophy on its own, now that he's actually bothered to read the description of the course

he likes the look of Christs and Kings but I am guessing they don't fall into the "unknown colleges" category - would anyone have a list of those that do? Especially those in the city centre

I think he is on target for grades required, also think he has so far not dropped below 90% for anything (this is where you get the a* at A2 isn't it?)

we haven't even started talking about the ucas statement - the eton summer school one was good practice though I guess - much harder in some ways because it had to be only 1 hundred and something words

I have taken on board the comments on him actually doing the communicating and will continue accordingly

so pissed off with the school's attitude. When I saw the head of G&t last summer he was so nice, encouraging, helpful - yes of course he is capable of oxbridge, yes, happy to write any references required, just let me know - etc etc - not one single thing he offered has come about though

am still very worried about the ucas personal reference in the light of what happened about the eton summer school one. Can't believe that someone would be so unprofessional as to deliberately screw up a student's application like that - he MUST have known what he was doing. the person who wrote it is head of sixth form and has been for many years. (different person is head of G&T)

anyway thanks again - and would love to know the unknown colleges in cambridge

less well known Cambridge colleges - Robinson, Churchill, Selwyn.

less well known Oxford colleges - St. Annes, St. Hildas (only recently starting taking men!), St. Catherine's, St. Hughs, Mansfield

In terms of competition from friends at the same school; that will depend if friends are applying for the same subject. If they aren't then shouldn't be a problem.

The disadvantage of going to a less well known college can be they offer less in way of college owned accommodation and book grants as they are less well off. The advantage of going to a less well known college IME of my subject (which was law) is there was less academic pressure - the law tutors at other colleges could be terribly driven to get results from their students - so students say who got 2:2 instead of 2:1 in their first year exams could be put under a vast amount of pressure to improve.

Homerton College, Cambridge is a hidden secret, as they have loads of very good en suite hotel-style accommodation on campus, a mixture of romantic Victorian and modern buildings, and they are only a mile or so from the centre. Library is good, it's quite near the station, and it's supposed to be the friendliest college in Cambridge. Bar is quite nice as well.

Preferably avoid King's if you are going down this route, as it's massively oversubscribed. You get the same lectures if you sign up for another college anyway, and sometimes even the supervisors are shared.

It's funny about Homerton, BoeuffinMum - as an undergrad Girton and Homerton were both classed as 'far away' but Girton is 3 miles up a hill, whereas Homerton is about a mile and a half flat, and the South side of Cambridge is the nicer side. I know which I would go for.

The OP's DS wants to go to Oxford anyway, but could be useful for other people with teenagers reading this thread.

That's what I thought. Good students bowling up to Homerton having put it as their definite first choice, and being enthusiastic about what it has to offer, would be in a stronger position that if they had applied to somewhere like King's and subsequently needed to be spotted in the pool.

Do people even know that it exists now (and are you a member of Homerton by any chance?), when I started Homerton was 'that teacher-training college'.

It changed over to become a standard college in 2000, and is keen to recruit good students from non-Education subjects.

It's also flogged the nursing course, to ARU I think.

If it has been that long then I expect people are aware of it as a 'proper' college now.

90% + in modules is fab! The UCAS statement must be spot on, lots of kids apply with top grades to Oxbridge and the UCAS statement and references are the differentiators. Hopefully your DS may get some tips at the summer school.

I would have another chat with the school - it will help with their sixth form retention if they get someone into a top uni. If they can be bothered to put themselves out and spend some time 'crafting' a reference why should pupils stay with them for A levels. The role of the Head of Sixth is meant to include guidance and support for the bunnies and yours needs to get off his arse pdq!! I am in a bog-standard and already my tutees have open/visit days booked, we have spent the year working on enrichment, and after the visits we will tweak the statements. The subject teachers will complete academic references after May half term. It is not a perfect process by any means but for any student that is heading for a Russell group uni it is essential to be ready with an early application.