Year 8 parent's evening.

[seeker]

Ok - dd's parent's evening last night - hugely complimentary, hard working focussed, interested, pleasure to teach all the usual guff. All 6s and 7s apart from 5b for German and Spanish, both of which she started last year , and 5c for Latin, which she started this year.

Apart from ICT. 4b. Dd has said the teacher doesn't give them all the information they need for the tasks they are given, and when asked for more info, just says the same thing again and walks away. Last night the teacher said "I had no idea you were finding it difficult - why didn't you say?" Would you have though that a 4b would have been a bit of a clue to a teacher that a child was struggling?

She made dd promise to find her and ask for help if she needs it - is there anything else that she/we/dd should be doing?

Sounds fab!!! Re. ICT, my impression is that grammar schools don't take ICT that seriously, hence laidback attitude of teacher. Sounds like the teacher has got the measure of the situation now though and will help her a bit more. I wouldn't worry.

We've got Parents' eve next week....ugh.

Does she have access to the same programmes at home. I found by far the best way of learning IT is just playing around.
Also from what my ds is doing a lot of IT work is actually the planning, preperation and research as well. At ds's school they like to tie it into other subjects.

I had dd's parent evening at primary on wednesday and ds's yr8 before half term and it was really odd because both their teachers said exactly the same thing about them(had a very weird sense of dejavue), that they were both very gifted in this area (probably neglegent parenting as they spend far too much time on pc
But also they were very good at explaining to other dcs in the class how to do things in a nice uncondescending way . May be your dd can find a friend to sit down and help her, it might just need someone who explains it slightly differently.

That's a good idea - she's got a cousin in the same year who is a kind and helpful person.

The thing that puzzles me is that she is, I would have said, very capable on the computer - she uses powerpoint,and excell and lots of other things that are a closed book to me, and is always helping her little brother with things. So I'm not really clear what the problem is.

Don't know about whether she's got access to the same programs at home - i assume so but perhaps I'm wrong. I'll ask.

I am not too familiar with ICT in the lower school, although have covered many ICT lessons as a supply teacher and I am familiar with the curriculum at our school.

I would say that where most pupils fall short is in spending a lot of time of the presentation of their pieces (eg spending half the lesson on Wordart and weird fonts from the internet, rather than the content).

The other thing is not using the specialised parts of the software. For example, a lot of pupils will make pretty tables in Excel, where in reality they could have done the same thing in Word. If they are using Excel, they should be using formulas, cell references across sheets, sorting etc. With Powerpoint, they should be creating Master slides and other automated features, hyperlinks, speaker notes etc.

One of the principles behind ICT is the suitability of the presentation style for the purpose of the document - and they should be evaluating what they do along the way, and critique good and bad points, and say how they could be improved.

ICT is an easy enough subject for a clever student, but it is a hard subject to do really well in. It is easy to get a C, but not many people get As.

Thank you scienceteacher - that's exactly the sort of thing I need to know. I know she was using Excell properly, because she showed me that bit of her last project when she'd when she'd finished but you may well be right about the presentation aspect - I know myself how easy it is to get caught up in finding the perfect font!

I have taught some ICT to years 7 and 8 and it seems very strange that a child achieving levels 6 and 7 in other subjects is not doing so in ICT. Particularly as it is quite an easy subject to teach and for students to work out how to do well.

Scienceteacher is right as sometimes girls spend ages using word art, choosing pretty colours ut forget to use the features that enable them to move up the levels, such as hyperlinks, forumulas etc.

A second part of ICT is explaining your choices and thinking process. So why a programme was chosen, why a particular font, colour. Why use formulas in spreadsheets?

The ICT levels are on this page for you to download so you could see if dd is working at a level 4, I would be surprised if she was I will see if I can find some pupil speak ones.

Pupil speak ones, I have copied and pasted it as it was on the tes and you needed a password to view

Level 4

 I can find information from various sources. I can edit the information so it is suitable for my documents or task.
 I understand the importance asking appropriate questions when collecting and finding information for a specific task.
 I can use my findings to come to conclusions; I understand why the quality of questions asked effects the quality and reliability of these findings.
 I will be able to choose the right software for the set task.
 I can create documents that are appropriate for the intended audience.
 I understand why it is important to check the accuracy and quality of my documents.
 I can use ICT to exchange ideas in different ways.
 I understand the risks of using the internet and email, and how to keep myself safe.
 I understand how to use a spreadsheet to solve everyday problems.
 I can use database software to store and retrieve information.
 I know how plan and enter a simple of set of instructions to control a model. E.G a maths turtle or set of traffic lights.
 I can compare my work to other students in my class.
 I can describe how ICT is used outside of school.

Level 5

 I can use a combination of ict packages to complete a task or solve a problem.
 I can choose the information that I will use for ICT, checking accuracy and making sure it is in a proper format for the task.
 I can organise information and make it suitable for a specific audience and purpose. E.G adults or children, leaflet or newsletter.
 I understand the risks of using the internet and email, and how to keep myself safe.
 I can use ICT to exchange ideas in different ways.
 I know how plan and enter a accurate and tested of set of instructions to control a model. E.G a maths turtle or set of traffic lights.
 I can create a spreadsheet to solve a given problem.
 I can design a database for a given problem. I can use the database to answer a particular question.
 I can use ICT safely and responsibly.
 I can discuss my knowledge and experience of using ICT and how it is used outside school
 I can identify the strengths and weaknesses in my work, I can explain how to make improvements.
 I can make improvements to my work using my own evaluations and those of my teacher and peers.

Level 6

 I plan and design my work before starting the task.
 I combine a number of ICT tools to solve a problem or complete a task.
 I test and refine my systems and change it to make it better.
 I can do advanced research from both primary and secondary sources to answer a set question or to a prove hypothesis. E.G. ? I think everybody has a computer at home?
 I can present information in a variety of forms e.g. a report and power-point. I can modify the way I present information for different audiences. E.G. Teenagers or adults.
 I know how plan and enter an accurate and tested of set of instructions to control a model. I can use subroutines to refine and improve my program. E.G a maths turtle or fair ride.
 I can use spreadsheet models to make predictions and can vary the rules with the models to change outcomes.
 I can test the validity (accuracy) of my models by comparing their behaviour to other systems or examples.
 I understand the importance of having using appropriate file names and having a structured file management system.
 I review and proofread my work regularly making necessary changes.
 I evaluate my work explaining the strengths and weaknesses of the system or document, referring back to the original brief.
 I can make improvements to my work using my own evaluations and those of my teacher and peers. Explaining how my final product differs from the original plans and why they were needed.
 I can discuss the impact that ICT has on society.

Level 7

 I can plan, design and implement an ICT system.
 I understand how information flows within an ICT system.
 I can combine and edit information from a variety sources both electronic and other sources.
 I can present and adapt my work for different audiences.
 I recognise the advantages and disadvantages of different information systems
 I can select and use information to develop systems to work in variety of contexts or situations.
 I can express myself in plain English and technical terms when required
 I know how plan and enter an accurate and tested of set of instructions to control a model. I can use subroutines to refine and improve my program where suitable. I can create a set of instructions to control for a specific purpose.
 I can design a spreadsheet model with appropriate formulas to meet a particular need.
 I can identify with the strengths and weaknesses of my systems. Recognising the advantages and disadvantages of it. Using this to inform future judgements and choices.
 I will make use of audience and user feedback to refine and enhance my ICT systems.
 I can take part in discussions about ICT and its impact on society using information I have researched to back up my argument.

Level 8

 I can independently select appropriate information sources and ICT tools for a specific tasks, taking into account ease of use and suitability
 I can design successful ways to collect and prepare information for processing.
 I can design and implement a system for others to use.
 I can take part in discussions about how ICT impacts on all areas of society taking into account social, economic, moral and ethical issues using research to back up my arguments.

Exceptional performance

 I can evaluate software packages and ict models, analysing the situations for which they were developed assessing their efficiency, ease of use and appropriateness.
 I can suggest refinements to existing systems and design, implement and document (create a guide) systems for other to use, predicting some of the consequences that could arise from the use of such systems.
 When discussing my own and others? use of ICT, I use my knowledge and experience of information systems to inform my views on the social, economic, political, legal, ethical and moral (PESTLE) issues raised by ICT.

Hey thanks for this Twinset - this is helpful.

ds1 also just got a glowing report with the exception of IT where he is 'below target'.
His teacher says he needs to make more oral contributions in class.ROFL!
No teacher has ever said that about ds1 since he started school! Usually the opposite. I think this teacher may live to regret that statement.

(IT is ds1's 30th lesson of the week on a Friday afternoon last thing after starting the day with Rugby.
So I think basically he sits there in a semi-exhausted daze!)

But he is a bit of a whizz on IT, so these level descriptors are useful to know where he needs to pull his socks up.

Seeker - what do you make of these levels with respect to your dd? I think some IT teaching in schools is just a load of old bunkum.

ds1 certainly hits all of the descriptors on L6 and some (of the ones I can understand - what's an "IT system"?) on L7.

He does loads of his homework on the PC. He's an absolute whizz with MS Word, powerpoint, and publisher. He rarely needs to use Excel, but is quite competent. (They had an IT suite at primary and IT lessons with an IT specialist every week since yr1!) He knows more about databases than I do (which admittedly is not a lot!). He organises his work efficiently in folders with suitable names.

Whenever they are doing a project in other subjects ds1 is always in great demand from his peers as a team-mate, partly because of his IT skills

No probs seeker.

that was me

sorry was on auto pilot roisin

I am a bit that your Year 8 child is getting ICT lessons. ICT is one of my ds1's strengths and they don't get ICT lessons per se until Year 9.

I don't know what you will think of this, but ds1 is similar to your dd, ie all level 6s and 7s except for languages which he only started last year, and English which he has always been rather poorer at. When I went to parents' evening in Year 7, I was rather dismayed to listen to his English teacher and realised that he thought he was dealing with a very mediocre child. When I pointed out that English was ds1's weakness and he was actually getting outstanding reports from other staff, the English teacher was genuinely surprised. I don't know how secondary school teachers feel about this, but I felt it mattered. The English teacher did not seem to be pushing ds1 on enough as he was under the impression ds1 was not bright enough to handle being pushed. Perhaps secondary school teachers here are going to tell me I am wrong to think this, but it was definitely the case that the English teacher did not know of ds1's other abilities. Might this be the case with your dd?

I think some schools are phasing out ICT and teaching it through other subjects. I know my old school was going that way. So some subjects would do an assessment that would be marked for ICT as well.

I think too often secondary teachers are not aware of how children are doing in other subjects. I have just been analysing my tutor groups exam results and made a point of informing staff which students had met their targets across all subjects, or had got A* across a number of subjects. But generally it is something we are guilty of.

That's so useful, twinsetandpearls, thank you- and it makes me even more confused! If I had looked at that before Parents Evening, I would have said she was a definitely a 5 or even a 6. She made a e-book with hyperlinks in it Primary School!

She can certainly use powerpoint, word and Publisher more than capably, and organize her work on the computer. They aren't allowed to do a lot of homework on the computer, but when they are it's fine.

Oh well, one of the unsolved mysteries of our time, I suppose. Glad to know she's not alone though, and that it looks strange to others and I'm not being PFBish!

That is a shame, TSAP, if they are phasing out ICT teaching. ICT is am important lifeskill. I know that I don't really teach it in my Science lessons, although we do use it together. I tend to set up formulas (incl macros) for the students to plug in their data. Maybe I need to be letting them do more.

I know that most of us adults are all self-taught on Microsoft products, but I think it is a reasonable thing for us to teach to teenagers. Unless you have a keen sense of curiousity and problem solving, you need to be taught ICT skills. Our generation can get away with feigning ignorance, but not so with those who are about to enter adulthood.

I am not sure scienceteacher, I use a lot of ICT in my teaching and could assess pupils using ICT levels if I needed to but to be honest I have enough to assess and have enough trouble keeping up with the requirements of my subject. I also have the advantage of very good ICT skills and have taught ICT for a few years in lower school. I also know that while some teachers may be willing to assess ICT skills they would not be able or even want to teach it as we have enough of our own curriculum. My top sets could cope without the formal teaching, but those less able students would need teaching and are less likely to teach themselves.

But when I taught ICT we would often get the students to use ICT to organise or present their learning from other subjects.

I would be very wary though of training as an ICT teacher without a second subject.

Having said that I think it will always be a KS4 option and the school I am in now not only has it as an option but has compulsory short course ICT.

I get very frustrated at how little my dd gets to use a computer at school, I have been in and complained a number of times.

My younger children (Y2, Y5, Y7) all have timetabled ICT lessons - twice a week in the ICT room, as well as occasional lessons where they use the ICT computers in specific subjects (eg to do research).

Dd has timetables ICT once a week, one ICT maths lesson a week, and access to the ICT suite at all times for doing other stuff. Not allowed to give in printed homework unless given specific permission, and a ton of bricks descends from a great height if the teacher suspects unattributed cutting and pasting!

Why the downer on using ICT for homeworks?

ds1 finds it far easier to draft and re-draft using a computer rather than handwriting.

Afaik his school are happy for most things to be completed on computer - he usually does anyway. Some homeworks have to be completed and submitted electronically!

His handwriting - like mine - is rather scruffy and is never going to be beautifully neat. So the presentation is way better using ICT.

In class they usually handwrite things, and he can do this to a very high standard, but he can produce even better work using the computer.

If I give out a homework that could be produced using ICT, then I like when they do. I can't specify they have to because some pupils have difficulty accessing ICT at home, and aren't able to stay late at school.

I obviously like work that is easy to read and spell-checked. But more importantly, it gives them an easier opportunity to plan, review and improve their work.

If the work is plagiarised or downloaded without editing, I rip it up in front of them. They don't do it again.

The school's line is that they want them to be able to present work well without using a computer. They are also encouraged to use (gasp) books to find things out!

They do often get permission to do their work on the computer - it's just that they can't unless they are told they can.

I agree completely about copy/pasting and plagiarising. But I think it's important that students learn how to precis articles from the web and put things in their own words in KS3, rather than at the deadline for their coursework in yr10/11!

The boys do homework on my laptop, which isn't internet-connected. So if they have to do internet research they have to do that on this PC (and fight me off mumsnet!) then either remember the facts, print them off, or save them to a pen drive.

We also have thousands of books in the house and regularly visit the library, and often they don't need the internet at all for their homework.

I agree they should be using books for their research, rather than automatically turning to Google or Wikipedia - but the should also be providing a bibliography (book ref, or URL plus date accessed).

It seems odd to ban typed work in order to force them to use books. They could have copied it down by hand from the web.