Can someone talk to me about grammar schools please?

[Idrankthechristmasspirits]

Hi,

I have a dd in yr 4. On the gifted list at her state primary but i think this means feck all really (am aware it is the top 5% in her school only and not a real comparison across the country IYSWIM).
Both the state secondary schools that we are in the catchment area for are failing and have less than 30% achieving 5 gcse's at c grade or above. Both are under threat of either being closed or amalgamated to form an academy, which i think will not improve things at all.....

I am really concerned that dd will lose her momentum to do well if she ends up at the catchment schools so have put her name down for 3 independent schools.
However, I have heard Good Things about grammar schools as well. I'm aware she will have to take the 11+ and do really well so will look at tutoring in yr 5 for the verbal reasoning side of things as well as a brush up on maths and english?

I'm confused about catchment areas etc though. I'm in Essex, closer to Harlow than Epping so can i apply to all grammar schools within a "do-able" distance or would i be restricted to catchment areas?
Any info on applying to grammar schools will be really gratefully received.

I may be wrong but we have local grammers. I am in Dorset but the grammars here are in Poole. I can apply but dd will only get a place after the students from the local authority. Check the school for their own criteria.

Go to the website 11 plus exams and look up the info on the Essex section of the forums. The rules are different in every LEA.

The 11 plus in Essex is the same as the one my son has just been through in West Yorkshire: maths, English and 21 question type NFER style verbal reasoning. The only difference is that in West Yorks the maths in the paper only covers topics that a year 6 child will have covered. In Essex they will ask some questions that are not covered until year 8. You will need a tutor or to cover the maths work yourself at home, unless your child is taught this additional maths as part of the maths for gifted children work. My son does the gifted programme (gets taken to the secondary each month from his state primary) but they do not do the key stage 3 maths; it is all non-curriculum problem solving instead.

In short, do not assume your primary school has covered the 11 plus maths topics! The Peter Robson prep school type maths books are the best for teaching 11 plus type maths at home.

I think Essex English 11 plus is based on 19th century texts.

Verbal reasoning just requires looking at some papers (which some primary schools do) as long as your child has a wide vocabulary.

The consortium round here (CHelmsford, Westcliff, Southend, COlchester grammar schools) 11+ exam is 25% maths, 25% English and 50% verbal reasoning.

My dd is in year 5 doing 11+ tuition at a local Kip Mcgrath centre and quite a bit of the maths isn't stuff they do at school and is presented in a quite different way to those in the SATs tests.

THE bond books (you can get them from WH Smith) are good for practising the sort of things needed for 11+.

Chelmsford County High doesn't have a catchement area so you could definitely apply if you don't mind the travel (or your dd doesn't!). The top 120 girls are offered a place regardless of where they live. I think the situation is the same for the others in Essex, although Southend and Westcliff reserve some places for children who live in catchment and get a certain mark in the exam. You can still apply for them if you don't live in the catchment area.

You need to remember that you only have 4 places on your application form which you have to use for comps and grammars. Unfortunately in Essex you don't find out how they have done in the 11+ until after allocation day. Hope that makes sense!

Fantastic help ladies. Many thanks.

So is Kip Mcgrath the way to go for tutoring then? I'm thinking an hour a week. Would that be too much do you think? I don't want to hothouse but i want to give dd the best chance i can IYSWIM.

I don't know about Kip Mcgrath - I don't know whether they tutor specifically for the 11+. I think an hour a week is fine but I don't know if I would start just yet if she is only in Y4. we made that mistake with my dd who was really up for tutoring and always happy to do the work but even she was sick of it by the end. We won't start that early with my ds.

Kip Mcgrath do tutoring for the 11+. My DD does it. THe sessions are 80 mins long with about 4 or 5 activities covered within that time. Mix of computer and written work.

SHe started at the beginning of year 5. Agree that it's a bit too soon to start as early as year 4 with 11+ tuition.

No no! Sorry, I'm not going to start the tutoring until sept (yr 5). I agree it would be far too much.

So does your dd do it weekly smartiejake or do you think fortnightly is enough?

Apologies for all the questions. All help much appreciated.

No I would say it really needs to be weekly. I don't think you can do it fortnightly with Kip Mcgrath anyway.

Closer to the exam they recommend x2 week so I think my DD will probably do that from September of year 6 as the test is in November.

The other good thing about Kip is that they do a free assessment before you start and they will tell you if they think it's worth trying for 11+.

As MillyR said, www.elevenplusexams.co.uk is a brilliant website - search for the Essex forum and you can find out everything you need to know, there's loads of 'old-timers' who've been there, seen it, done it and you can get all your questions answered.

Fabulous. Many thanks once again ladies.

But bear in mind- 'brilliant' re elevenplusexams' in this context can also mean 'psychotic'.

You'll see what I mean once you've been there.

I don't know why parents do this tutoring malarky. Beats me.

Here's a cautionary tale. I recently met a family who moved into the catchment area of a local grammar school to improve their DD's chances of getting in, losing the best part of 100k in the process (massive drop in their house price, rental in the interim, moving costs etc). Then they paid a tutor for 18 months. Then their DD failed the exam. Then they went to appeal. It was never ending. Just relax and do a couple of practice papers.

Know where your at Q, BUT the problem is IF the DC FAILS the hallowed grammar school entrance, in SOME areas, despite the scurrilous use of the word 'comprehensive' the alternative SECONDARY MODERN can be dire because they've lost the Nice Middle Class Influence of those (academically) creamed off to grammar, both DCs and pushy parents.

I can SO see why parents DO do this tutoring thing. What we NEED is a schooling system where that's not an option. The academically gifted should get lessons tailored appropriately, the vocationally able should get lessons tailored appropriately.

Stick 'em in the SAME school to get away from this awful Entitlement thing we're seeing and educate them ALL appropriately!

I like teaching my children stuff though. The national curriculum is quite narrow and my son is always hungry for more maths, ciphers and so on. There are loads of interesting cultures and parts of history that schools don't have time for, and just everyday things like species of trees and so on. What goes on in school is just a little bit of a child's education.

I am not sure how doing that is really any different from tutoring for the 11 plus. I did maths with ds before the 11 plus and after the 11 plus, and will continue for as long as he enjoys it. You don't have to learn everything at school.

Quattro - dd will be having an hour every fortnight. This is because the ii+ in Essex contains Maths problems that are a different method to the ones taught in the state primaries. Also, dd's state primary does not teach verbal and non verbal reasoning in the way that she will need to know for the 11+.
Whilst i could do the maths with her, i am shit at VR problems.
We're not hothousing, she is already on her schools gifted list so i think she is bright enough for the 11+, just not aware of the methods she will need to know IYSWIM.

We are not pinning our hopes on the grammar route and have no plans to move to catchment areas etc. She will be applying for independent selective and grammar schools.

We tutored dd for the 11+ as we did not want her to be at a disadvantage compared to the privately educated children also doing the exam. In this area the private schools coach their pupils intensively to pass the 11+.

As dd is very bright we felt that the grammar school was the best place for her and didn't want to see her miss out on a place due to lack of preparation for the exam. We did not tutor her to bring her up to a suitable level to go to the school but to familiarise her with Verbal Reasoning which was not covered in her state primary.

The competition for places is fierce and unless a child is extraordinarily bright, looking at a few papers with them would not be sufficient preparation.

Now that dd is at grammar school, 40% of the girls in her class went to private school. They will all have done a lot more than just looked at a few practise papers.

i wen in to this grammar school thing quite blind really

I went to the school open day - was told what the tests were

did some with ds ( state educated and out-of catchment) he took the tests which was stressful with ds1 as it spanned 2 weeks - he passed and went

I have done the same with two others since

Yes a lot of coaching goes on but a bright child can 'learn' how to pass those papers imo

If the child neeeds a great deal of coaching it should not go

There is so much hype about these exams ( on here included) - bright kids get in

Which area are you in Ria?

just read more of the thread

hope you are not all seting yourselves up for fall

an hour or two hours a week

unneccessary imo - too much hardship for the child

i went to grammar school, i would just say that it is a good idea to look at question types to prepare but if a child needs an hour a week tutoring for a year to pass the test then they may struggle all the way through and may need tutoring to get by all the way through.

I hope you are right Ria - we have stopped coaching DS1, who is bright, but pig headed and lazy.

We live very close to one of the best grammar schools in the country, but they dont' have any sort of cathcment area atm (that may change this year) and so the competion is very stiff and children travel from very far and wide to attend.

The thing that worries me is that becuase he is bright, if he doesn't pass he will be bored in the local secondary modern (which is just around the corner form us, small, and lovely) so we will have to stick him on a bus to send him to a comp in the next town.

I know lots of people who start coching from YY3 - the tutor DS was going to had a 95% pass rate with DC's who sarted in Y3.

My friend didn't coachj her DD atall, and she just scraped in, but now she is at the grammer school she is doing way better than those who were coached and scored better than her in the 11+ test, so obviously coaching does work.

I think as long as they understand how to answer the questions they will be fine if they are bright - there is a nack to make working out some of the answers easier, I think.

My dd had over a year of tutoring as we wanted to give her the best chance of getting into the school which we felt to be the best suited to her needs. She gained a place at a highly selective grammar and is not struggling in the slightest. In her best subjects she is near the top of the class and in her weakest subjects she is in the middle. We would not have tutored her to "bring her up" to the right level as the last thing I would have wanted is for her to be unhappy at school.

Yes, I agree re. overdoing the tutoring (3 DCs at/were at grammar school). Mine weren't tutored but it is a good idea to familiarise them with the papers and teach them some 'tricks', like writing quickly (!), working out some of the answers on a grid, just so they don't waste time labouring over one question and not finish the paper, that sort of thing. You need to be pretty speedy to finish the papers, so doing some timed practice is a good idea too.

I know children who have been professionally tutored for a year or so who haven't passed.

I'm afraid it is the sort of test that either you can do or can't to a certain extent and no amount of tutoring is going to help that.

All this talk of tutoring just panics more parents into doing it. I really do think practising a bit at home to make sure your DC knows what they are doing should suffice.

I agree with bfl re. home pactise - make sure they know to quickly go back over answers they've left out at the end - don't leave any questions out.
But I think what really makes or breaks is vocab - if you can make sure your child reads a lot, maybe actively learning a few new words each week, that will be a big advantage.
And, as others have said, if you know your child is bright enough and would benefit from this sort of environment, don't hesitate to do what you can to help him/ her.