What do you think is the ideal secondary school uniform?

[roisin]

Our school is in quite a difficult area and has a shirt/tie uniform, which I loathe. At any one time only about 5-10% of the students will be wearing it properly, and most of the rest look very scruffy with the tie so loose/low you can't even see it.

Even with yr7s it's a real struggle to get them to sort out their ties properly at the beginning of a lesson. (A few teachers bother, not many, and most give up the fight by the end of yr7.)

My opinion is it would be better not to have collars/ties if you're not going to insist on them being worn properly.

So what would be a better alternative?

The best uniforms are the ones where there is no scope to circumvent it.

All our uniform, except shoes, comes directly from the school uniform supplier. Their shoes have recommended styles. Their hair accessories are either from the school uniform shop or within very tight guidelines.

We have very few uniform issues.

If they want to be creative, let them be creative in their English essays, or artwork.

Teenagers don't particularly want to be individual with their dress. They are horrified at the thought of being different. They have to look to the ringleader, but these people are best stamped out.

Custardo, my DCs' school is similar, but only 5 stripes have to be on display (stripes are quite far apart though). Then from Y9 onwards, when they wear a more patterned kind of tie, the rules change to the tie must cover 5 shirt buttons or somesuch.

On the whole I agree with Seeker: it shouldn't matter and it IS something that people latch on to in a "oh they always look scruffy so it must be a bad school" kind of way.

But for many pupils in deprived areas it is really difficult for them to keep white shirts looking (and smelling) smart: they may only have one each or may find that their parents are not managing to get them washed as often as they really need to be. In schools like this, I think sticking to a white shirt uniform is a bit bonkers.

I used to teach two brothers who share one tie, each putting it on for the lessons where they knew the teachers would be most likely to ask about it.

In my Year 10 group the boys who look the scruffiest are actually the best at handing in their coursework! I'm sure there's no correlation but I'm equally sure that their coursework wouldn't suddenly get even better if their shirts were always tucked in (although I do insist on it as if a school DOES have a uniform, then I think it SHOULD be insisted on; otherwise there's no point)!

AT the school I worked at previously we had kids that shared PE kits, even girls and boys. I used to buy kids in my year group a few uniforms and they would come in get a shower, I would give them breakfast and give them clean clothes. At the end of the day they would return to me and put on their other clothes and I would wash their unforms at home.

not sure about deprivation = less likely to have clean white shirts - just look at some school uniforms in Caribbean and African countries, very smart indeed!

Was talking about my own school, which is in one of the most deprived areas in the UK.

Yes, Twinset - have done the whole giving breakfast thing lots of times too. We now run a free breakfast club for pupils funded from somewhere or other: has made some difference.

It will do they cant work if they are hungry.

I once noted a pupil eating half her lunch and very carefully putting it away. When I asked her why she was no finishing it she said it would be her tea as Mum was always drunk by the time she got home from school and there was no money for the chippy.

I think the vast majority of school uniforms are very badly designed and unpleasant to wear. I also think that schools that decide to enforce uniforms strictly should make the teachers wear them too. Our school uniform wasn't too terrible (nasty polyester shirt in unpleasant shade of blue too short to tuck into the nasty navy polyester skirt designed so that it bulged out around the hips) but it used to make me very angry when the very sloppily dressed teachers (who could wear whatever they liked!) told us off for looking scruffy. If children are forced to wear ties then the teachers should have to wear them too, and have their top buttons done up so that they are equally as uncomfortable. I also think that it sets up a lot of totally unnecessary conflict (remembering one of the rules of parenting is to pick our battles).

The school I went to for sixth form had very dishy uniforms though, and I am afraid to say that that was one of the reasons I chose to go there I still have a thing about guys in tuxes...

So my view is that if you are going to choose a uniform then a) teachers should have a strict dress code too, and b) it should look smart in the children's opinion, be comfortable and practical, and come in a few variations for body shape.

We are in Canada now, where uniforms are very rare, and behaviour is generally very good. Sometimes the children wear silly things, but that doesn't seem to get in the way of them learning or minding their manners.

I always do look business like for work and wear clothes that I do not wear out of work.

Well I must admit I do dress smartly for work but agree that some teachers would benefit from a uniform!

I consider blazers expensive & unnecessary - our school has blazers, but no sweatshirt/jumper, & the kids are freezing some days. School badged sweatshirt + presentable coat seems like a better idea (although the pockets in a blazer are useful I suppose...)

But in a school that requires children to wear a tie do you? I dress for business, but don't own any ties (I usually wear an open necked blouse and smart jumper). I think some school uniforms are very archaic. In many fields most people are more likely to wear smart casual than formal suits now, and I think school uniforms should adapt accordingly.

Oh and I would never ever wear polyester by choice. Tis nasty stuff.

"I once noted a pupil eating half her lunch and very carefully putting it away. When I asked her why she was no finishing it she said it would be her tea as Mum was always drunk by the time she got home from school and there was no money for the chippy"

Oh twinset - how tragic - how old was she?

God, don't some kids have a terrible time

she was year 7. She was finally taken into foster care, I offered a temporary place for her myself.

I wear a mixture of smart suits and dresses for work as do most of my colleagues. We are a very smart staff. THe children do not wear blazers but do wear ties.

Male staff have to wear ties, female can if they feel like it.

See I would have found that annoying because chances are a woman who didn't feel like wearing a tie might be telling me off for not arranging my tie (which I probably hated) to her liking. But there we are, my children won't be going to a school with uniform anyway (so long as we aren't booted out and back in the UK by then). I do think that we are a bit hung up on the idea that strict uniform = good school. The school which dd would have had to go to in the UK had a very smart uniform (tie, jumper and blazer with kilt) and was appalling (notoriously badly behaved rude girls school). Plus dh's experience of uniform was that it was a great way for school prefects to bully younger children. The kids here go to school in shorts and t-shirts in summer, jeans and hoodies in winter. Cheap, cheerful and comfortable (very few designer trainers etc seem to make it as far as our town!). But then we do live on the West Coast and formality isn't prized.

My dd's school is a very high achieving (Sunday Times top 100) "outstanding" grammar school. They wear black trousers, open necked shirts and v necked cotton sweaters. They, ! suppose, look scruffy beside the blazer and tie schools in the same town. AND the wing collar sub fusc one! But they beat the others hands down at sport, exams, behaviour and community spirit.

And I hate seeing girls in ties. It's almost as if they have to pretend to be boys to be entitled to a secondary education.

Yes - I also hate seeing girls in ties. When I was at school boys wore ties and girls didn't. Now they are all expected to, I assume because somebody played the sexist card at some point and instead of letting boys stop wearing ties they went the other way. Can't see much point in it tbh as girls are unlikely ever to have to wear a tie again.

If you look at the illustrations in early school stories (as I'm sure janite at least has!) you can see that the uniforms are adapted boys clothes. Often with ties. I can see why then it must have felt good to do something that had been denied to girls "look you boys, we're as good as you and we can even dress like you now!" But now it looks to me as if being a boy is the norm and girls have to conform to the image in order to be acceptable.

But I am a 70s feminist, I Reclaimed the Night, Embraced the Base and and insisted loudly that Yes Meant Yes and No meant No. So what do I know - none of those things got anywhere!

my dd, aged 14, a very prestigious independent school, v smart uniform but thankfully no tie,still v well presented without the dreaded tie.

I agree about the undesirability of white shirts. We have a very mixed catchment at both my boys' primary and the secondary where I work.

Some parents clearly insist that children have a clean shirt (secondary) or polo (primary) several times a week, and then whites are washed separately.

In other homes students only have 1 uniform shirt anyway, so it has to be worn for an entire week. Then it isn't washed separately, or may not even be washed at all.
They just turn grey and look dreadful.

We are waiting for an announcement of a new uniform.
But I have a sinking suspicion it will be white shirts and blazers
Apparently they are giving a uniform grant of £60 to all current students ... but that's not going to cover much is it? Certainly not all the PE kit as well or second/spare sets of uniform.

Are you becoming an academy Roisin? Ours will be getting a new uniform each, apart from Yr 7 who will have to buy it. I belive they are going with blazers and white shirts though, which seems rather silly to me.