Taking 3 or 4 A levels

[TomorrowMoreWorsts]

I’d be interested to hear what people thing about taking 3 or 4 A levels.

DS is about to sit his GCSEs, and is currently set to start 4 A levels next year. I feel like this is a lot, and I just read a post on another thread saying that you should expect an hour a day homework per subject, and that doing 4 A levels would knock out all free periods.

What’s the motivation behind it? What does he want to do post 18? What else does he do in terms of work, hobbies and socialising that he will have to stop?

A bright boy doing 4 which includes maths and FM plus 2 other STEM subjects, has few other commitments and is aiming for a very competitive course which builds on knowledge from a-levels, is in a different boat from an academically average boy who wants to do 4 very disparate subjects because they don’t know which one to drop.

As a rule, AAA, is better than BBBB - but it depends why you are doing it. If it’s a stepping stone to higher education where you will be selected on the basis of the best 3 grades then choose the 3 subjects you are likely to get the best grades. If you want a broader knowledge and don’t mind too much about grades and are happy to work hard then choose 4. If you want to do economics at LSE or MORSE at Warwick etc choose 4.
Revising for 4 different subjects at once is hard. The vast majority will get better grades by sitting 3.

Unless the fourth A Level is Further Maths or the young person would like to apply to US universities, there is no real point in sitting four A Levels. At least, that's what we were told.

Some sixth forms let everyone do 4 A levels until the end of year 12 and then drop one subject so when they apply for uni it is with 3 A levels and an AS. There are very few courses where 4 A levels are essential, usually these are top tier unis for courses that would prefer them to have Further Maths. Lots of sixth forms do not offer Further Maths so unis cannot say it is essential however as applicants they will be competing against those with Further Maths.

Only a very small percentage of students take 4 A levels. Both my children did 4 A levels in a state sixth form where most do 3 A levels and the only 4th A level option is Further Maths. My children studied maths and Further Maths but their degree courses needed them as they were maths heavy. Some will ask them to sit an entrance exam such as MAT or STEP. Other top tier course such as History or Languages also require an entrance exam. Look ahead now at all the options at university.

Looking back at my children's timetables for A levels
5 hours of contact time per subject (4.5 for DC2)
6 hours of free periods even with 4 A levels
Enrichment (extra curricular anything from sport, knitting, reading club, chess etc on a Wednesday afternoon)
Assembly
Tutorial.

Both mine managed to either complete work in class so no homework or most of the homework set was completed in their free periods which they used as a study group so they sat with their mates and everyone did their work. The sixth form had a chatty hangout area and a dedicated study area.

I would ask yourself why you feel the need for a 1 hour free period "break" in their school day? They don't have one now. Mine still got a 20 minute morning break and a 30 minute lunch every day.

In general many places will only allow three a levels unless you are already doing maths and the fourth one is further maths.

private schools tend to be more flexible, but it is a lot of work and universities rarely require more than three so the general thinking is better to get top grades in three than only ok grades in four.

I think it’s a good idea to start with 4 and assess halfway through year 12. That way if the load is too much can drop one - also if hate one have flexibility. Don’t over think now.

Well, except if you're interested and passionate about the subjects I suppose...
I did 3 science A Levels (because I knew it was what I wanted to pursue at uni), plus English Lit out of enjoyment. My uni offer was only based on the sciences so I could do the English with no pressure and simply for the love of the subject.

I think starting with 4 A levels is fine. It can be difficult to narrow it down to 3 after gcse. Ds started with 4 for this reason, and knew half way through year 12 which subject he would 'drop'. It was one he had enjoyed at gcse but discovered he had no interest in at A level . It would have been a bit tricky if he'd only had that subject as one of 3.

DC1 did Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology. Got 4x Astar. DC1 is incredibly bright and also incredibly hard-working. I think for these subjects it is worth considering doing 4 because you kind of need them all to do well in science (DC1 did a science degree) For a very clever and motivated young person, it js feasible to do 4. But as others have said, I agree that AAA is better than BBBB.

One of my children has done 4 A-Levels (not including Further Maths) because he liked all 4 subjects and couldn't decide which one to drop. So, he started 6th Form with 4 subjects and we've kept an eye on how he's been coping in case it might have been sensible to drop one subject at any point, but he's coped well. His workload is obviously bigger than his peers but he enjoys all the subjects and has worked really hard. The only real pinch point has been that two of the subjects he chose had a big coursework element so there was some pressure as those deadlines loomed - but that might have been the case if he'd only taken 3 A-Levels I guess. He's not going to university so I can't comment and whether the extra A-Level would have helped or hindered a UCAS application.

Yes, very true! I meant really that it offers no advantage for university applications. But obviously not everyone wants to go to university.

I do agree about starting with four and dropping to three too. It's a good way of finding out which you really enjoy, especially since some subjects aren't offered at GCSE level.

As universities only make offers based on 3 a-levels and the workload is supposedly very high these days, the usual advice is to only take 4 if one is FM. I do know some schools where you can start with 4 but with the option to drop one at some point. This is often for students who are undecided on their degree path and may need to keep options open. It depends on the subjects and the reason for taking 4.

While I agree that four are not required for anything, I think that three are really limiting in terms of breadth (and in my opinion not really a full-time education, even if you double the timetabled hours with work at home). However, in terms of grades, he may be disadvantaging himself compared to everyone taking three if he takes four. I would actually like to see everyone move to four with one contrasting subject so that everyone has to show some breadth as well as depth. (Just my opinion, I know it won't be popular.) But I would hesitate to recommend it for an individual in the current setup. What does his school do?

This is where the IB is a much better setup. I wish it was offered more widely. I suppose we don’t have the teachers for it.

@ACIGC I think the IB is great but for me it actually goes a bit too far in the other direction! (IB pupils always sounds really stressed out with six subjects, coursework in each subject plus TOK etc. on top.) I would really like a middle ground with some specialisation, but also breadth, and no extras required. But I don't think there is the appetite for it.

IB costs a lot more to deliver.

I used to work at a school that offered it. You need a lot more teaching time than three a levels so funding is an issue. The government used to have an additional grant for the costs of running the IB but that went I think last year.

from an individual teacher point of view it’s no harder to teach each element than a level in the subject. The coursework is a bloody nuisance though as you are constantly chasing students and it takes up so much time.

I did 6 AS and 4 A levels.

It depends what you want to do.

I realised when choosing my uni courses that I needed maths. Hence the extra.

Yr 1 - AS English language, Economics, Art, Biology, Critical thinking
Yr 2 - A level Art, Biology, Economics, English and started AS Maths

It’s a lot of work. Less stressful than doing 13 GCSE with 3 arts.

I did five, it was fine.

Is he planning to stay at the same school, or does he have an offer to study 4? DS1 did 4 - Maths, FM, Physics and Philosophy, and doing the first 3 together, with a 4th that is a bit different, seems to be quite common - he got lots of offers. He chose a school 6th form (not his previous secondary school which doesn't have a 6th form) where everyone normally starts 4 subjects in year 12 but most drop one at the end of year 12, when they have to get at least a D in mocks to continue a subject. FM students are expected to continue, assuming they get the grades, and his group took the Maths A level near the end of year 12, with double lesson/study time allocated, and began studying FM at the end of that year. I don't know how many students there actually carry on with all 4 subjects, outside FM - there were only 12 students in his group doing Maths and FM that way (lots more A level Maths students who weren't signed up for FM and studied over the 2 years).

I would think that if he's getting offers and school predictions and references support his application, starting 4 is quite useful and keeps options open for a while, as long as he is up for the effort. At the end of year 12, if not before, students have plenty of time to decide about work levels, subjects etc, and to drop a subject, before making university applications and decisions in year 13.

As PPs have posted, many sixth forms will only allow four if one is FM (and not always require it then - you could do maths, FM and one other in DS2's year at his school).

Most students I know who started with four dropped one, often before the end of the first term. I guess there is an advantage to that if you are in two minds about a subject – especially if it is something like psych which is usually a new subject at A level and sounds exciting (but isn't) – hence has a high dropout rate. A lot easier to drop one in the first term than switch to another subject.

Again, if uni is the plan, there is no gain from four A levels as no uni requires it and you are probably just going to spread yourself too thin.

PPs saying they did four or six – when was this? A levels were reformed several years ago. My diligent DD took three and found it a lot of work. I myself took three actually back in the darl ages and again, that was plenty of work.

What are the four @TomorrowMoreWorsts? Does DS want to take them all or is the school mandating it? If the latter, how soon can he drop one?

Depends which unis he will be applying to, as often top unis attract students with 4 A’Levels with A* predictions and they will have also chosen to study another one in their own time (often maths and economics).

My DDs school policy is most pupils to start on 4 for year 12 and have the flexibility to drop one after year 12.
Not sure I entirely agree with this but I guess it gives options if someone doesn’t like a subject or isn’t doing as well as expected.
If most students at the school do 3 I would just do 3, universities prefer 3 As than 4 B/Cs.
Further maths is the exception, lots do this as a 4th A level.

Ds is at an independent and they ask them to do 4 with one an IB. It's because they consider it to provide a broader experience. I'm not actually sure if they can drop the IB if they wish- I need to check. Usually it seems the IB they do is a language if they are not doing a language as one of their 3 A-levels.

DD also went to an independent school and they all started four and almost all dropped to three for the final year. Those who didn't were almost all applying to US universities or doing Further Maths.

I don't understand the point of doing one IB course and three A Levels, apart from if there is something you want to study for fun, and you could just do an A Level in it anyway if you wanted to. Isn't the whole point of IB that you have to do a broader range of subjects?

I did five A Levels back in the dark ages. DD did three and I think she had a bigger workload than I did. Mine were final exam only (and I like exams) and hers had coursework for two of the subjects which was extremely time-consuming.

Same for me, 30 years ago though.

Maths, chemistry and physics, plus English lit. I also took English lit because I loved it and wasn’t ready to give it up yet. It also kept me sane amidst all the maths/science - well, it was a lovely balance anyway.

As it turned out, it was hugely fortunate I had done it, because I headed for natural sciences but instead of eventually specialising in chemistry, as had been my plan, I took up with geology, which is a heavily essay based subject (at least it was at my uni). The essay writing skills I got from eng lit absolutely saved my bacon and helped hugely for my geology essays. I would never have learnt to write such concise well formed essays otherwise.

I had a lot less free time than some of my friends but I found a lot of the maths / chemistry a lot easier than they did so it all worked out.

Personally, were I in charge of education in this country I would probably opt for a 6th form option somewhere between 3 A levels and the IB. I agree 3 A levels is very narrow, especially for a 16 year old who isn't sure what direction they want to go in next but I think the IB is too far the other way and all the young people I know who have done it found it very stressful.
However, we have to work within the current system and I would agree with the majority that unless the 4th is FM or the DC is very bright I would be wary of attempting 4 A levels. As others have said, the workload is high and there is no real advantage to having more than 3 A levels in terms of University admissions, barring a few specific courses where FM is a big plus.
I remember a thread some time ago where someone made a claim along the lines of "most students at Cambridge have 5 A levels". This was well and truly debunked during the thread using easily accessible data in the public domain.
I know a lot of STEM graduates through work and socially as DH and I both work in (different) STEM fields. The vast majority have 3 good A levels. I can't think of anyone I know who has struggled because they didn't have 4 A levels. My DC are at University currently and have friends studying a wide range of subjects at a wide range of institutions and again, the vast majority have 3 A levels. That has been the norm for as long as I can remember and I am getting on a bit! "Only" having 3 A levels is very unlikely to limit a young person's future options but failing to reach their potential in terms of grades may well do so.
I think some posters are a bit out of date, referring to AS levels. I know it's different in Wales but in England AS and A levels were "decoupled" some years ago. It is no longer the case that the AS syllabus is simply the first year of the A level. If you drop an A level course at the end of year 12 now of course you'll have the knowledge you've gained which may well be useful but there won't be a qualification to show for it like there used to be.
Trying 4 to see which you like best is not a bad idea but I think the decision about whether to drop one and if so which one probably needs to be made by Christmas in year 12 at the latest. If you fall behind in a subject it can be quite hard to catch up, and remember there are only 2 real teaching terms in Year 13. If doing 4 impacts on performance in the other 3 you want to give yourself a reasonable time to correct that. My youngest DC wanted to start 4 but in the end it didn't happen due to timetabling constraints. But had it gone ahead we had an agreement between him, his teachers and DH and I that if it was not going absolutely according to plan he would drop the 4th at the end of the first term, or sooner if he was struggling. A number of his friends started 4 and I think only one actually finished them all (excluding those who did FM). They are all very bright boys who went on to do highly regarded courses at the sort of University MN approves of so very able pupils - don't underestimate the work needed to get high grades in 3 A levels. So I would advise your DC to try 4 if they are really unsure but be ready and willing to drop one quickly if they are not confident they can reach their potential in all 4 once they are actually doing it.