Would parents choose a more practical and outdoor state secondary?

[OneHappyJoker]

We’re doing some early-stage planning for a new state secondary school and would love some honest thoughts from parents.
We’re trying to figure out what people feel should be part of a state education, especially for teens who don’t thrive in a purely academic system. For context, the school would be fully state funded and not run by an academy trust.
The big idea we’re exploring is mixing traditional lessons with a much more practical, outdoor and vocational approach. Things like animal care, camping, cooking, creative arts, water sports, equestrian, greenkeeping, construction, architecture, tech, and so on. We’re also looking at whether schools should give teens more time outdoors, more freedom to explore interests and more space to figure out who they are.
We’re also questioning how assessment works. We know GCSEs are a major part of the current system, but we’re exploring alternatives that focus on skills and project work rather than high-pressure exams. We understand this is a big shift, so we’d like to hear what parents think before going further.
We’re lucky to have access to several possible sites, including spaces that could be used for sport, arts, outdoor learning, animal care and even things like water-based activities. Nothing is final yet, but we’re trying to understand whether families feel this kind of education belongs in the state sector, or whether it would be seen as unrealistic or unwanted.
So here are the questions we’re hoping to ask Mumsnetters:
• Should a state secondary offer more outdoor learning and practical skills?
• Do you think teens benefit from non-exam-based assessment, or is sticking with GCSEs essential?
• Would you want your child to have access to things like animal care, camping, watersports, creative arts, greenkeeping, or vocational pathways alongside academic subjects?
• Does this sound like a realistic model for a state school, or something that parents wouldn’t trust or choose?
We’re genuinely open to all views, including critical ones. If you could design the “ideal” state secondary from scratch, what would you put in it?

I would love my teens to spend more time outside whilst at school. However I still think it's important to encourage academic qualifications for those who are able. I'd be v interested to know if you get this off the ground, and if so where it is!

How would the entrance process work? This wouldn’t suit some kids.

One of my priorities when looking at schools will be how they are dealing with bullying.

It all sounds great, but I wouldn't want to exclude my kid from potentially doing A levels later. I'd want them to do at least 6 GCSEs, with an option for more.
DD does go to a semi vocational secondary, it's private and hours are longer to fit everything in.

Sounds awesome.
I would have loved a school like that.

I'm Scottish, so not aware exactly how the English school system currently works tbh. But in general I agree will you that schools are too academic.

I would like a school which does both at the same time. I'd make all pupils try a basic maths and English qualification, to keep their options open later. Hopefully if they are doing more enjoyable subjects elsewhere they would feel less overwhelmed by two academic subjects and more likely to succeed. Aside from maths and English, I'd let pupils choose their balance of academic subjects and vocational/practical subjects. Obviously running both simultaneously would mean a smaller choice range, but I think it would be worth it for the mix and match. It is difficult to be certain how high school will go when you apply aged 10, and it's a shame to force children to choose academic vs vocational so early on. You might find that children who are expected to struggle academically do actually manage a couple of traditional qualifications when in a better learning environment. I also think it is better for children to learn alongside others of all abilities wherever possible.

Brymore is a little bit like this.

Look at the XP Trust- its a chain of Free Schools which do similar. . The charity "Jamies Farm" might be of interest as well.

Plus lots of schools offer practical BTEC vocational qualifications along side academic ones. Construction and animal care are two the most popular choices at my DDs school fir example.

There's a school in Liverpool that's run like this and it's very successful (though because it's an inner city school the focus is more on sport and volunteering and vocational qualifications rather than nature-based learning). It's very small and primarily for children at risk of exclusion though, it's not something parents can apply directly for.
https://evertonfreeschool.com/index.php
I think I would want my child to have the opportunity get the equivalent of five GCSEs grade 5+ including Maths and English, because that opens so many doors. I wouldn't want those doors to be closed to them because of an application I made at ten.
I think I'd also think carefully about how you're positioning this to parents. Are you primarily for SEN children who might not meet the criteria for a SEN school? Are you suitable for an academic child who also loves sport and being active?
In principle, I'd love for my kids to have lots of active, outdoorsy options within the school day (speaking as the parent of a dyslexic 8yo who currently only likes PE, history and breaktimes at school). I often wished I could send him to a forest school or the sort of school where they don't start formal learning until 7. But much as I think he'd thrive with lots of outdoor opportunities, I do also want him to be literate, numerate and have a basic understanding of history and science and opportunities to practice the arts. That might not necessarily mean GCSEs, but we do teach those things for a good reason!

Should a state secondary offer more outdoor learning and practical skills?
• Do you think teens benefit from non-exam-based assessment, or is sticking with GCSEs essential?
• Would you want your child to have access to things like animal care, camping, watersports, creative arts, greenkeeping, or vocational pathways alongside academic subjects?
• Does this sound like a realistic model for a state school, or something that parents wouldn’t trust or choose?
We’re genuinely open to all views, including critical ones. If you could design the “ideal” state secondary from scratch, what would you put in it?

Parents aren’t the experts in education, though, so you’re not putting the children’s interests first if you base your teaching methods on whatever particular prejudices and misunderstandings are current amongst parents at the moment.

Surely your USP will be evidence based teaching that relies on the considerable amount of research that there about children’s learning. The evidence shows in particular that:

children learn best in child lead, not teacher focussed learning;
assessments are counter productive
children learn more and more thoroughly in cooperative rather than competitive environments
prizes are harmful to those who lose and demotivating to those who win
homework has limited value

There is so much research that could benefit children and make teachers professional lives far more rewarding. Why not go with that? That would make a really rich and rewarding school and distinguish it from every other educational treadmill. It’s a great pity that there is such a low respect for pedagogical education in this country.

Get the basics right. That’s what you should focus on, not the peripheral decorations and outward signifiers.

My DS goes to a specialist school (SEMH) that has a lot of these offers.
They really don't have any ambitions for the children, we feel. They only offer one science GCSE, and only English and Maths beside this. Everything else is offered at BTEC Level 1 (GCSE 4-1) or lower. So while it's great that he can for example do Land Management in years 10 and 11, it isn't at a level that will enable him to study it at college.
The school is expensive (paid by our LEA) and part of that is probably the facilities (though for most of it it's the SSR, to be fair). But for example they have animal facilities and with a small number of pupils they can have them all in the poultry cages doing something productive at one time - but there are only up to about 6 in a class. With classes of 30 I do wonder how you do a practical land management class.
The school has other facilities such as a science lab and apparently they used to run mechanics. But currently because of the low academic standards (and this isn't necessarily how low the standards would be at your proposed school) they only offer this one GCSE in Biology and AFAIK they don't use the labs for that. They lost their mechanics teacher (I have no idea if there's a national shortage of mechanics teachers) so they don't do that any more, and have apparently not tried to recruit (not that they've told us anyway!).
The school appears to offer subjects when they can get the teachers (so they do still offer Art because they have a teacher) and that's an issue you may need to look into I feel.

Many secondary schools offer things like DofE, Outward Bound, I imagine there are qualifications in these (rather than just extracurricular) but it's the kind of thing that older teens and young adults do as a job because they learned outside school. Are you thinking of these as a route to work or just as hobbies?

I have academic kids. Whilst a small amount of extra could be lovely, id probably veer towards a more traditional setting.

HOWEVER, there are loads of kids who would benifit from less formal qualifications (can you get some kids to sit functional skills maths and English at 16 alongside GCSEs?) Combined with much more physical and practical learning..

Id be concerned your school would fill up with kids struggling in a standard setting, and behavior could be an issue.

It sounds lovely to have those activities as extras, but I wouldn't want my children missing out on academic qualifications to do them. If there was time for both, then great. But they would need to be studying at least 6 GCSEs so as not to close doors at 16, I feel. Also, my children are quite academic - I think it would be a great set up for children who struggle with too many academic subjects, so they could have a better mix and hopefully be more positive about school.
One of my children really wanted to do a more practical subject for GCSE options - I encouraged it but he changed his mind because 'it wasn't academic enough and a waste' (his own words).

There is a school near me that is more focused on the vocational subjects. I do think that’s a great idea for those that are not so academic. They also did everything except English / maths / science I think it was via project based learning pre gcse years. They ended up getting an inadequate rating and scrapping that idea I think.

also what then happens sixth form? They have one but it’s very low numbers and crap a level results. Most people bright enough for a levels will go to another sixth form and I’m not sure that the vocational people don’t all leave and go to a college with more choice.

Academy trusts are state funded, fyi.

With the falling birthday rates I would question the wisdom of opening a new school now.

Wouldn’t even consider it.

I’m sure it would suit some children, but honestly I’d consider camping to be a waste of time. And a lack of academic subjects is it’s not something I’d sign my 10 yr old up for when choosing secondary schools.
Water sports and equestrian sounds expensive - how would it be funded.

I wouldn’t look at it for my children.

I think you need to consider where you’re pitching it, and who you’re pitching it to. Is it, as a previous poster said, for SEND students who don’t meet the criteria for a specialist provision? Or a more universal offering? If the latter, you will have to offer traditional GCSE’s, and more than just a handful. Which means you have to structure your KS3 curriculum to allow those students to do well in KS4. If it’s the former, then the number / type of qualifications you’re offering will be different but then you need to pitch the school differently.

you also say fully state funded, but your funding will also depend on how many students you have so, if you open with just year 7, you’ve not got a lot of money coming in. How are you planning on finding the money?

My DD did a mix of GCSE and BTECs (she's clever but very SEN) and a huge amount of music.

BTEC suited her much more than exams. Definitely worth offering those same level alternatives. GCSEs only cater for a very narrow type of ability and alternatives are great for those who do better with more 'real life' methods.

It doesn’t really matter what MN from across the UK think though - it’s whether there is demand in the area where your site is - is there a shortage of secondary spaces locally?

I wouldn't consider a school that didn't offer GCSEs unless I had a child who would definitely not be capable of doing GCSEs. And if you did run GCSEs, I can't see how you'd also have time to offer that amount of outdoor and practical stuff tbh.

I had a DD, who was intelligent and well behaved; but she went to a specialist secondary school, because the extent of her specific learning difficulties were such, she couldn’t have coped in a normal mainstream school. Our local secondaries were all about how many As and A*s, the children could get - without any regard for the pupils’ welfare, in her sister’s case. She did some foundation GCSEs, and subjects like art; and animal care at the local FE college. Other students did catering, horticulture, etc.

A school like this proposal might have been ok for her. I certainly believe many less academic pupils are failed by the current one size fits all system - and we would be better with the German system of three types of schools, including more vocational schools.

This would be ideal for some children. But not all.
I want my child in an academic school and the reality is we don't actually get much choice. We are allocated the school that can take them from the few weeks can put on the form.
I wouldn't want my very academic children in that type of school but I can see it as idea for a different type of child.
How would selection work?
How would you avoid the wrong child being placed in the school?
How on earth do you decide what type of school is actually suitable for an 11 year old who is changing all the time?
We know the 11plus system is deeply floored. So how would this school work in reality?
Maybe starting at year 9 and taking the clearly more practical minded children at that age would work?
Interesting Idea.

You need to think very carefully about whats next for your pupils. They need enough qualifications to access level 3 courses and then university.

And remember lots of state schools do DofE to do those more practical skills or afterschool clubs.

I think there would be a demand for a school that offered the full range of gcses but people could drop some of the optional gcses for a bigger range of vocational qualifications. But realistically these are expensive to run from state funding.

My son is doing a vocational qualification that is project based but he is at a special school so they get extra funding to run it as I dont think a big secondary could do it.

Schools are struggling to fund basics like books. I very much doubt the state will fund what you are asking.

No but I would choose that for a primary

If in England (and possibly Wales 🤔) all new schools that open have to be academies or free schools.
State funded but the school can use it's money for whatever it wants.